I see a lot of posts for the Italian Mafia, Mexican or Latin gangs as well as Black gangs. Me, being of Asian decent and spending a fair amount of my teenage years on the wrong side of the law, I thought this would be a good topic to open discussion about. Being the only one of my friends to attend a certain school, I got into fights every other day. Fist fights were nothing new and on occassions, a stick or some other blunt object is used. The youths today have just one resolution and thats to shoot first and thats true with youth gangs of all ethnicities.

Asian Crime eh? I always enjoyed reading up on them.

The Wo Hop To, Born to Kill, Tiny Rascals, Pinoy Boyz, Ghost shadows all them.

What exactly do you want to discuss??

Just anything really. I grew up in it as my father was in a gang called Bing Gung Tong, which was in the same era as the infamous Golden Dragon restaurant massacre here in San Francisco which happened when I was 6 years old. His group was the neutral one that didn't get involved with the feud between the Joe Boys and the Wah Ching, but tried to make peace but I guess that didn't work out. They did what they thought had to be done. Since then Bing Gung has gone legitimate owning various and several businesses, most of them in Chinatown. Wah Ching manifested into a bunch of young kids in LA who follow the African-American gang-life more than they do of Asian traditions.

Well, you're right, Shake. There isn't much media coverage of Asian gangs in the US because nearly all the reporters and editors aren't Asian. In NYC, Asian gangs didn't get any coverage--or police attention--at all until well into the Seventies. In fact, NYPD didn't have a single Chinese officer until that time. Chinatown was considered "inscrutable" , and the tongs were regarded as legitimate business cartels. Gambling, drugs, etc., were basically ignored, as if Chinatown were its own separate entity.

Then a combination of increased immigration from China, coupled with the influx of Vietnamese after the fall of Saigon, led to the creation of young street gangs. They were into overt violence, like the massacre you cited in SF. A guy I worked with was shot and nearly killed in a restaurant in NYC's Chinatown in a shootout between the Ghost Shadows and the Flying Dragons.

While Italian Americans are moving to the suburbs, more Asians are coming into America. NYC's Little Italy has shrunk dramatically, and much of it has been absorbed into neighboring Chinatown. While the Mafia's gotten weaker, Asian gangs have gotten stronger. But Asian gangs are still under-discussed today.

I would agree, but I would like everyone to remember that tongs were here since the first chinatowns were founded. Tongs started off well-intended enough but eventually they became the dominant force in asian-american communities.

Your dad was aroudn during that golden dragon shootout? I remember reading about that, christ thats some heavy stuff man. I'll agree that many asian gangs have been emulateing the black street gangs but lets also remember that the first "modern" asian street gangs did that automaticlly as well. It's well known that BTK did such things as well as numerous others. It's not just a question of them becomeing that NOW it's that they've been doing that, balcks seem to rule modern gang life so many emulate them. There are some "blood" and "crip" gangs that started out claiming that affiliation simpley to look tougher to their rivals who came in on the same boat.

If you want to see those old time asian traditions followed I wouldn't really look outside of the mainland/hong kong to be honest.

Are those 'Asian Gangs' just street gangs as opposed to organized crime as a business by la cosa nostra?

It's hard to say really. The Asian gangs that sprout up are usually motivated by the fact that other ethnic gangs are harassing them constantly. But then again the BTK where very business oriented, constantly doing home invasion robberies.

Theres no doubt that the Triads from the mainland/hong kong (even taiwan) are crime as a business. But the varying tongs are iffy, some are, some aren't it's really hard to say.

One could say theres 3 types of asian organizedc rime (at least as far as the chinese are concernced) you have the ones that emulate the blacks (street gangs), the ones in the various chinatowns that will do business almost exclusivly there (the tong related ones), and then the triads who are basically on the level of the Mafia, Yakuza, Red Mafiya, etc.


Then again i suppose one could argue that for ALL ethnicities as well.

Here in San Francisco, there are plenty of crime that goes around, but I think partisans find ways to keep things under wrap. I read the newspaper everyday and there's always at least 1-3 killings reported on a daily basis buts is always in the innercities of Oakland or Richmond and many of the victims as well as suspects are of African-American decent. The political rationale here is that Chinatown generates revenue on a consistent basis for the city. It remains a popular stop for tourists visiting San Francisco, but because there aren't that many crimes reported doesn't mean its not going on.

As for the structure, its more of an organized crime than it is some gun-wielding maniacs running around. The structure is very much like the Italian mafia. Each family has one top leader or Lo-Dai (Boss). Next to him is his right hand man (underboss or consigliere). Under them are a bunch of (Dai Gohs) leaders of gangs that are designated a certain district of the city and you have the underlings (Sai-Lo's). Allen Leung was their most recent Boss but he was murdered two years ago. I don't know who has taken his spot.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/04/08/MNGE9I686C1.DTL

In New York, Russian and Asian groups are the biggest domestic organized crime investigative priorities for the FBI after the Italians. But even they are generally considered "criminal enterprises," as compared to La Cosa Nostra which is considered "organized crime." Except for when they controlled the heroin trade following the end of the Pizza Connection, from about the mid-1980's to mid-1990's, the Chinese's influence has never really extended beyond their own communities. But you could say this about many crime groups. Even today, all you have to do is look at the indictments to see that LCN still has far more of a presence than the Asians, Russians, etc.

The number of indictments just don't tell the whole story or is it an indications of the activity of it being more active than other criminal organizations. What I can say is that the LCN's operates on a much larger scale when it comes to drug distribution. You compare that the other activities that would violate the RICO act, then I don't think their that much different. Historically, the LCN has much more prominence other criminal organizations have been doing the same deeds for just as long. The LCN glamorized crime to a certain extent making it more public than it wanted to be. The Russians and Asians bascially dealth within their own communities and society.

The number of indictments are evidence of how significant the authorities consider an organized crime group's operations to be. The illegal gambling and loansharking operations of the five New York LCN Families are far bigger than any of the Asian groups. In fact, the only group that can rival one of the five Families illegal gambling operations is the Cuban Corporation. Same for extortion. Compare the LCN's exortion and kickback operations in various New York industries (waterfront, garbage, construction, trucking, etc.) to Asian groups shaking down local businesses within their own communities. Drugs, in fact, is the one area where the LCN has actually lost ground. For about half a century, it was the major supplier. Following the end of the Pizza Connection, and the subsequent rise of the South American cartels, the LCN was marginalized in terms of wholesale drug trafficking. Now it operates primarily at the mid-level in the drug trade, and relatively speaking, is more involved in illegal gambling, loansharking, exortion, and labor racketeering (in the case of the New York Families) operations.

If you say that the Hong Kong Triads operate on a far smaller scale than the Five Famalies, then you're forgetting the fact that they come from hong kong. That they have international influence.

Thats the cool thing about the russians to, they have all this international influence and have only recently come to america. They deal in alot've gas fraud and the like. The asians and russians deal in some BIG scams (those little computer chip things, counterfeiting, etc) and I don't think they're confined to just shaking down local businessmen. Ok sure, they don't have a hold on waterfront rackets or other things that require political influence but I think thats mainly because they're minorities and minorities have NEVER had good political influence. I think the main reason the italians have so much of that is because they're white and the italain community is alot more mainstream (and if theres one thing politicians like, it's mainstream).

I also don't agree with how you say that drugs have been the ONLY area where the mob's lost ground. I remember in "The New Ethnic Mobs" that it said that the mob's lost ground in bookmakeing and numbers and other day to day operations to even the blacks (but really only in their neighborhoods) sure they don't have an edge on extortion or waterfront rackets, but the day to day stuff the mafia keeps getting chilsed away at more and more. Espiclly nowadays.

I think you need to read my posts better because once again you're putting words in my mouth. I was talking about domestic organized crime, specifically in New York. The Chinese Triads are a syndicate (or syndicates) with global reach, more comparable to the Italian groups that also operate on the same scale, i.e. the Sicilian Mafia, 'Ndrangheta, and Camorra. La Cosa Nostra is not on the same level as these international groups. But within New York specifically, the LCN still has the biggest presence and scope of operations.

I'm not sure what you mean by the Russians have only recently come to America. They've been operating in the U.S. since the late 1970's. But in many of their big time scams, like fuel tax fraud, they had to pay the Mafia a tax in order to operate. It's also important to know that for the most part the powerful Russian syndicates that are based in Moscow avoid operating in the U.S. to a great degree because they have a "healthy respect" for American law enforcement and intelligence communities and the rest of the world is wide open.

The Mafia still far and away controls the largest illegal gambling operations in the U.S. Especially bookmaking or sports betting. As I said before the only group that can rival one of the New York Families in terms of organized illegal gambling is the Cuban Corporation, which controls most of the illegal gambling in the Hispanic communities of New York, New Jersey, and Florida. And their main business is the numbers or policy racket.

You are correct though about the fact that Mafia members are white enables them to operate much more in the mainstream. The same thing as helped Russian and Eurasian criminals in America operate with less restrictions.

Ok well I suppose I'lla gree with that if you purely meant domestic organized crime in new york. But so long as you know that New York isn't the only epicenter of power here in america.

Either way I aree with you about the american mafia now, they've begun operating on a much smaller scale internationally which is probably contributing to their decline.

To the best of my knowledge though the big influx of russian syndacites have been comeing in since the fall of the iron curtain, I'm defintly not denying a presence since the 70's but I don't think it was anything truely considerable as compared to now.

And to clear up one last misunderstanding I did think you were talking about the mafia as a whole in america not primarily the Five Famalies, now it makes more sense to me.

With relatively few exceptions, the American Mafia never had extensive international operations. Those few exceptions would be things like certain factions operating in Canada, stolen cars being shipped to Kuwait, wire rooms in Costa Rica, casinos in Cuba, drug connections to Mexico and South America, etc. The LCN was national in scope at one time. Now, it's influence is regional, mainly in the Northeast, parts of the Midwest, and Florida.

True, the main influx of Russian gangsters came about in the early 1990's but the prediction of many that the Russian Mob would replace the LCN has never taken place.

Speaking of international connections:
A story in the Wall Street Journal last year covered a clever money laundering scheme by the Colombian drug cartel:

All banking transactions greater than $10k must be reported by banks to the US government. It drops to $2k in ATM transactions. So the cartel's dealers in NYC opened up about 100 ATM accounts in different names, then had runners deposit a little less than $2k in each at about 11 p.m. every night. Between 15 and 30 minutes later, runners in Colombia would access those ATM accounts locally and withdraw the exact amounts. The transactions were just below the government reporting threshold. And because the money went in and out so quickly, so close to midnight, the banks didn't even record them.

Then again you can't really take those predictions seriously. It seems that EVERY new ethnic mob thats comes over to america is gonna replace the american mafia. I remember reading about all the hype in "The New Ethnic Mobs" (one of the best books if you want an overview of organized crime) that people thought the blacks were gonna take over, then the asians, it goes on.

I'm not sure if I entirley agree with you on the mob being national in scope. But let me ask for some clarifacation, did you mean the mafia as one large incarnation or the various outfits from NY, Chicago, etc.?

I never have taken those predictions seriously because they've never turned out to be right. In the 1960's the blacks were said to be taking over. In the 1970's it was the Colombians. In the 1980's it was the Chinese. In the 1990's it was the Russians. This decade it has been the Albanians. Each group carves out it's own piece of the underworld, but none of them take over or replace the LCN. "The New Ethnic Mobs" is a good book but the author backpeddles in the final chapter, bringing much of his thesis in the rest of the book into question.

What I meant by the Mafia being national in scope was all the Families. You had Families in the Northeast, the South, the Midwest, as well as the West Coast. And as Apalachin demonstrated, these Families had ties to each other. But since that time, those ties began to break down and the Mafia became more regional in it's makeup and influence.

I agree with the predictions never comeing true but I never took them seriously for a different reason. It's all hype i can't count how many times I've read "They make the mafia look like boyscouts/angels/schoolkids/w/e" and after you see that repeatdly you know it's just trying to make a big scare to get people to buy the freakin' book.

Ok, thats what I figured you meant just makeing sure.

I think for something to truely replace the mob it's got to keep it's base here in america almost exclusivly. It has to become entrenched into the mainstream and the like, sure the colombians, russians, etc. have all this huge ridiculous power back home (blatantly killing politicians and the like) but they seem to really only stick to their ethnic communities here in america. there are exceptions but eh... It's gonna be awhile I think it's a big testiment to the mafia's organizational structure and (former) leadership that they've lasted this bloody long with all this competition about.

Of course thats VERY bad news for regular people like us because that means we're dealing with criminals that much more ruthless and resilant.

I find it odd that alot've kids my age find our criminal past a source of pride for america, kinda says alot about the attitudes of the youth in this country, one would think they'd eb ashamed but then again... look at japan all haveing the yakuza as a semi-legit organization and all.

Well, as I said before, there were various sociological, political, economic, and law enforcement factors that enabled La Cosa Nostra to become as entrenched and powerful as it did. The authorities didn't really start going after the Families with any great effectiveness until the 1980's. The newer groups don't have the same luxuries. But even when you look at the Irish and Jewish groups back in the early years, they didn't last as long as the Italians because they were mainly criminals of opportunity and didn't have the same longstanding traditions that Italian organized crime is built on.

Well you could also argue that they simply slipped into the mainstream a bit faster. The irish had it good with tammany hall which helped alot'vce people get some jobs as city offcials, police, etc. The jews have always been involved in other business besides organized crime, everyone else just kinda found something else to do (don't get me wrong, I'm NOT saying the italians as a whole or even as a majority fell intot he criminal fraternity) but they were more organized as a whiole. You could also argue about timeing, irish and jewish gangsters were jussssttt slipping out during/after prohibition and the italians are the ones who kept the power where it mattered (sometimes they got kicked out of cities, but not in places like say, new york).

But like you said, various factors. I personally find the american mafia to be a purely american phenominan (sp) because the way it is today wasn't how it was in italy at all.


I remember talking to a few friends I knew from uh... Calabria I think it was (not just calabrese, they were exchange students) and they kept telling me how in addition to the usual american sterotypes of apple pie and white picket fences, the other big thing people thought of when they imagined america was the mob. Apparently it got way bigger than it ever did in italy.

Yes, assimilation is a big factor in the evolution of organized crime:
Every immigrant group (including today's Asians and Russians) preys on its own kind in its own neighborhoods. Irish and Jews assimilated fairly rapidly, and the next generations took advantage of assimilation to move out of the old neighborhood and to go to college, get vocational training join unions, etc.

Italians took somewhat longer to assimilate for two reasons. First, they suffered more prejudice than any other group of white immigrants--in their early years here, many Americans didn't consider them "white." Second, centuries of invasion and domination by outsiders left Southern Italians with a tradition of extreme insularity: immediate family came first, then extended family, then village--and every "outside influence" was distrusted, especially government and even secular schools.

Italian neighborhoods in American cities were clones of those villages and shared their values. In those neighborhoods, the Mob often was the employer of last resort, much like the phone company was for WASPs in Midwestern and Southern towns. Sometimes the Mob recruited a gangster with above-average intelligence who could have been successful in business, the professions or the arts if he'd had a chance--people like Frank Costello, Charlie Luciano, Carlo Gambino and Joe Accardo. But Italian-Americans have fully assimilated now. The Mafia is left with the John and Junior Gotti's, the Gaspipe Casso's...

The Italian-American community is fully assimilated now and has been for a long time. But La Cosa Nostra remains because it is a centuries old tradition.

On one hand, yes. But it still has the Dominick Cirillo's, the Barney Bellomo's, the Tino Fiumara's, the Matthew Ianniello's, the Danny Marino's, the Nick Corozzo's, the Steve Crea's, etc.

...some of whom are better than the Gotti's, none of whom are in a league with Costello, Gambino, etc.

Yes, the Mafia is still a force to be reckoned with, and will be as long as people with illegal needs want to have them satisfied. But I doubt the Mob will ever regain the power and influence it had in its peak years.

Well it's a given that the Mob will never regain the power it had at it's peak. But the names I listed above are head and shoulders above any of the Gotti's. And you have to take into account that the old time "greats," like Costello and Gambino had it a lot easier in many ways than the modern day mafioso.