Being a huge mob-buff from reading biographies as well as watching documentaries or movies, there was one thing that stood out to me about John Gotti Sr. John Gotti Sr, as big of a mob figure for the modern era of La Cosa Nostra, was far from your model mobster. There are rules, that I believe protect the integrity of the mafia from within as well as in the eyes of the public. Gotti Sr. was so powerful that he persuaded the commission to have his son, Junior Gotti, become a made guy. In the old days, this would of never been permitted by the Commission since Junior wasn't 100% Italian (his mother was half Italian and Russian Jew). Henry Hill couldn't be made because he was half Irish and half Italian (his mother was Sicilian). So did Gotti evolve the inner workings of the mafia or did he cripple it? Carlo Gambino is rolling in his grave knowing that someone who wasn't full Italian was running the family that shares his name sake.

Yes, the rules were eventually changed to where you could be made as long as your father was Italian, but Henry Hill was Irish on his father's side, which precluded him from membership.

As far as Gotti crippling the mob, you'll get no argument from anyone here. But making guys that were only half Italian was hardly his biggest gaffe.

Welcome to the boards.

I agree with pizzaboy, the rule is you gotta be italian on your father's side. Apparently mothers don't count for as much. I hear in the Chicago oufit they'll let almost any ethnicity in, but Gotti's big mistake was drawing all the publicity to the 5 famalies. He attracted too much spotlight.

letting other ethnicities in is actually a smart idea.

All that aside my only problem with this post is you saying the mafia has integrity. It's a criminal organization, don't be so dellusional seriously.

The rule that a prospective member has to be fully Italian on both their father's and mother's side was reinstated by the New York Families in the early part of the decade.

The Chicago Outfit is no different than any other LCN Family. To become a member, you have to be Italian. The difference with them is that non-Italians have traditionally had more upward mobility in the organization, as compared to other LCN groups. But they are still associates, not members.

Idk I've heard reports of Blacks becomeing actual Members.

Then again I haven't read the books on it so I could be wrong.

Then again in order to HAVE upward mobility in the first place, don't you have to be a made member??

Keep in mind that the Chicago Outfit under Torrio and Capone was not a Mafia family. The Unione Siciliana was Chicago's Mafia. Torrio and especially Capone ran the Outfit more like a corporation. Non-Italians rose to prominence: Jake Guzik was both Torrio's and Capone's second-in-command and actually ran the outfit, alongside Frank Nitti, when Capone went to prison. Murray Humphreys was a top-ranking member of the Outfit for decades.
As far as I know, Gotti Sr. was Italian on both sides of his family. His wife, Vicki, had a partly Jewish father, but under Jewish law, since her mother was not Jewish, she wasn't counted (or raised) as Jewish. And Mob "rules" seldom apply uniformly--especially if your father is the Don.

Blacks becoming made members of the Outfit? That is ludicrous. In every LCN Family across the country, you have always had to be Italian to become a fully inducted member. As said, in New York for a time you only had to be Italian on your father's side, but that was changed back eventually. There have been a few cases, like Chucky Porter in Pittsburgh or John Veasey in Philadelphia, that got made even though they were only Italian on their mother's side. But those are the rare exceptions to the rule. There have been others as well, like Frank Salemme in Boston, who was also not full Italian. But there has never been a non-Italian who was made into La Cosa Nostra.

The examples in the Outfit are mostly in the past. But back in the day you had guys like Jake Guzik, Murray Humphreys, Gus Alex, and others who were high level associates with a lot of influence. However they were never in the inner circle of made members who were in the administration, area bosses, etc.

Mob history, at least in this country has proven that being a made guy is actually meaningless. As a matter of fact becoming a made guy in the modern day mob probably had more disadvantages than advantages.

Some very infamous and prominant mobsters proved that they were much more valuable to the mob than most of the made guys ever were. Mobsters like Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegal and Arnold Rothstein just to name a few.

Becoming a made man, which was originally considered sacred by the ole mustache petes from the old country, lost it's validity and so called honor because the mobsters in this country became more and more "americanized" as the years went by.

Being "made" has certainly lost much of it's luster over the last few decades. But for many years, it was far from meaningless. There has always been a very real distinction between a guy who is made and one who is not. Rothstein, Lansky, and Siegal were in the early days when the Jewish groups were still a force. And even Lansky, who lasted the longest, was subservient to the LCN hierarchy. As years went by, these high level non-Italians became more and more rare.

You know, I think you have a much too romanticized view of things.

I honestly think that a Black could've been in the inner circle of the Outfit, not every Mafia family is run the same. I remember reading about an outfit in LA that was makeing a guy recently yeah? And they couldn't find anyone to say the oath and all that right? So they just made their own ritual up. I'll look for it again but nonethless I mean, is it so uncommon? I mean if we are to beleive that the wiseguys are the only ones with any ambition in the underworld why wouldn't they take a page out of some of the gangs out there and start allowing any ethnicity in? I mean the Latin Kings have become a nationwide organization and they were once (or maybe still are in some cases) common street punks.

I mean honestly why does it seem so farfetched? I don't think being made ever meant anything to be honest like Henry hill said "Makeing Money was the only requirment that mattered" I really don't beleive all this crap people tell me about a bunch of extortionists understanding the concepts of "respect" and "honor" considering what they do on a daily basis. Sure, there is MUCH prestige attached to the title I suppose but in the long run I say everybody remembers those notable associates we listed and the big bad dons.

I honestly can't name any "Made Guys" I ever cared about.

Romanticism has nothing to do with it. You honestly think a black could have been in the inner circle of the Outfit? Do you have any examples to support you thinking this? I ask this knowing full well that you don't because there never have been, whether in Chicago or any other Family. Have there been black associates? Absolutely. One of the most famous was Elsworth "Bumpy" Johnson, who was essentially a frontman for the Mafia's numbers operations in Harlem. However, the Mafia has always been a "white" enterprise, and more specifically, a white Italian-male enterprise. Most of the famous non-Italian Mafia associates have been white. As I mentioned, Chicago had Jake "Greasy Thumb" Guzik, Murray "The Camel" Humphreys, Gus Alex, and others. There was Hugh "Apples" MacIntosh, who was a high level associate of the Colombo Family. Joe "The German" Watts, a high level associate of the Gambino Family. Zef Mustafa, also with the Gambinos. As said, in the early days there was guys like Meyer Lansky and Bugsy Siegal. Moe Dalitz also. The Mafia has always worked with other crime groups, from the Irish and Jews in the early years, to the Russians, Cubans, Asians, Albanians, etc. today. And nobody said that the Italians are the only ones with any underworld ambition. But within the Cosa Nostra framework, there is a distinct hierarchy, the clearest line being between those who are made and those who are not. And even more exclusive are the high ranking members who make up the hierarchies of each Family.

As for the initiation ceremony, there have always been variances amongst the Families, though it generally follows a basic pattern of the prospective member being brought before a table on which are layed a gun and knife, their trigger finger being pricked to symbolize the blood oath, the burning saint card to symbolize their soul burning in hell if they betray their oath, etc. The Chicago Outfit didn't start using the traditional blood and fire ceremony until the 1970's. In the past the Patriarca Family has had a unique counting system during the ceremony used to determine which crew the new member would go to. The DeCavalcantes did not use the gun and knife in their ceremonies for a number of years and were forced to go through them again by John Gotti. I'm not sure who you are talking about in LA that was making anyone recently. Nobody has been made in LA recently to my knowledge.

Though some Mob families have used blacks as quasi-associates to run rackets for them in black neighborhoods, there is no way an African-American will ever become a made member of the Mafia. The prejudice against blacks runs very deep in the Mob.

Some white non-Italian associates have done very well in modern times. Jimmy (the Gent) Burke was the equivalent of a crew chief in the Lucchese family under Paul Vario. Hugh (Apples) McIntosh, although nominally Carmine Persico's bodyguard, was kind of a de facto consigliere. Paul Castellano had a partnership with some high-ranking Westies to run rackets in NYC's Hell's Kitchen.

Joe (Donny Brasco) Pistone reported, in his book, "The Way of the Wiseguy," that after he was revealed as an FBI agent about to be made in the Bonanno family, the NYC Mob went back to requiring that all made men be Italian on both sides. I guess his pals in the Bonannos are still keeping in touch with him, regularly bringing him news from inside the Mob, seeing as he was almost made.

So much to discuss!

I think the idea of Black Americans becoming formal made members of the Mafia is not going to happen. I don't think it's ever happened. The Mafia is not an equal opportunity employer. Many Mafiosi are profoundly, irredeemably and proudly racist. There have of course been instances when some Mafia families have done business with Blacks. This is usually on the Mafia's terms.

For example in The Way of the Wiseguy, Donnie Brasco points out that a Black associate who ran numbers for the Family in Harlem would come down to Little Italy once a week to settle up. However the Family had a rule barring Blacks from the social clubs. No exceptions. So the guy would have to wait outside, no matter what the weather. If the weather was bad the mobsters would get a kick out of making the guy wait even longer. It didn't matter that he was bringing them money. He was Black.

Here, the incarcerated Gotti shares some of his thoughts on Black people.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/blowingupgotti/

From what I've seen Gotti's views are par for the course.

Of course there are individual mobsters who get along better with Blacks. There have been powerful Black associates or rivals to the Mafia. But there aren't any Black Mafioso.

The Chicago Outfit was different, not in its views on Blacks but rather its view on non-Italians and mob hierarchy in general. The Outfit, at least during its heyday up through the seventies, was not exactly organized like a Mafia family. It was organized more like a corporation. In addition although the very top executive was always Italian, there were numerous non Italians who carried power in their own name, not just as subservient "associates". Accardo, Ricca and Humphreys made up a troika that ultimately even Giancana had to answer to. In the sixties and seventies, Hy Larner became a very big shot in the Chicago Outfit. He had Italians working for him. There was no question about who was "made" and who wasn't.

That aside , everywhere else though the only people who are eligible to get "made" are white males of Italian descent.

Most criminal gangs (especially in prison) are based on ethnicity. How many Black Hell's Angels or Aryan Brotherhood members do we see?

That's not true. I know of at least two guys (both sons of capos), who were "made" in the last 5 or 6 years; one's mother is Jewish, the other Irish. So obviously, the bosses still bend the rules for their own.

And Don Cardi is right; being a made guy ain't what it used to be. First and foremost, you become an automatic target for the Government. It seems they know about it about an hour after the ceremony.

Thats exactly what I'm saying, I mean if it was organized differently doesn't it seem a tad likely that one could be a member regardless of ethnicity? If it's organized mroe like a corporation wouldn't techical "membership" be different than being a made guy? Ok fine I'll conede now until I'll actually read the book but I did remember reading an article that said it, why would I think othewrwise? *goes to his local library*

And yes gangs are usually based one ethnicity, espiclly in prison where it's their unifying factor. but theres pletny more examples of prominent street gangs that grew to let anyone in. i.e. LK, The Tiny Rascals, Vice Lords, Gangster Diciples (sp), etc.

Sure I wouldn't see a black in the aryan brotherhood but then again the entire theme of the AB is that whites are superior. Although they do work with La eme (which one of their founding members was a yugoslavian). But theres plenty of cases of multi-ethnic groups out there espiclly amongst street gangs.

I try to keep an open mind. So if you can find evidence of actual existing or historic Black members of the Chicago Outfit I'll certainly look at it. Thanks.

But this is the same Chicago Outfit that was closely associated with the bedroom mob town of Cicero, during the fifties and sixties a place so seething with anti-black feeling that MLK was warned not to march there and indeed didn't. Mobsters usually aren't on the more progressive end of the political scale.

All the books or documents I've ever seen indicate that Chicago Outfit members and associates were primarily if not exclusively Caucasian, mostly Italian and many held relatively negative views of Blacks.

They may have had Black employees or occasionally even business partners. But those people were not peers or members.

For example, Giancana and his group led a violent takeover of Black numbers rackets in the fifties. Those Black mobsters who survived didn't become Outfit members. They were just employees.

I, too, find it hard to believe.

Hey Lilo, nice to see you back on the boards. Where've you been hiding?

The official rule is that both parents of the prospective member have to be Italian. Now does the Mob skirt this rule as it has many times in the past? Yes. But it is probably only those who are well connected, like Junior Gotti was or like the sons of captains you mentioned above.

Wouldn't other mobsters be offended by rule breaking/changing? After all if the boss can break rules, whats to stop the average soldier?

You're looking for something that just isn't there and never will be. Yes, the Outfit was organized differently than other LCN Families, especially in the early days. That's why I said non-Italian associates had more upward mobility. But even the ones who became very powerful in their own right were never eligible to become fully inducted members.

You just answered your own question. The boss is the boss and has more power to do what he wants than a soldier. Those guys who are not full Italian becoming made members, besides being well connected, are the exception to the rule. In most cases, your average prospective member has to be full Italian in New York.

Because the boss makes the rules..
If the soldier doesn't like it he can certainly make his displeasure known. His survivors and heirs can speak proudly of his courage..

That's all I'm trying to say, JST. When it suits these guys, they'll take care of their own.

Some heavyweight wiseguys have even been able to protect their sons who "went bad." I'll use a very public example, but I'm aware of at least 3 others. I'm speaking of Michael Franzese, forsaking the mob life, writing books about it, giving lectures, etc . . . And living a VERY public life. Do you really think his father (Sonny Franzese) had nothing to do with protecting him?

There are others who are more obscure, but you get the point I'm trying to make.

Thx.

I've just been working on new projects at my day job. In Michigan jobs are very hard to come by but I've managed to survive multiple cycles of layoffs. <Knock on wood>

That happened in the Fifties, but it wasn't a matter of Mafia "rules" or "honor"--it was cold-cash greed:

John Scalise had been close to Salvatore Maranzano. After Maranzano's victory in the Castellemmarese War of 1930-31, he made Scalise a caporegime--in effect the boss of what later became the Gambino family. After Charlie Luciano arranged Maranzano's murder, he removed Scalise and replaced him with Vincent Mangano. But Scalise survived as one of Mangano's capos.

Albert Anastasia got rid of Mangano in 1951. He retained Scalise. But in 1957, Anastasia found out that Scalise had been selling memberships in the Mafia for $50k each. The offense was less that he was breaking "rules," more that he wasn't sharing the proceeds with his boss, and that if he'd been permited to continue, all families would be selling memberships, which would cause a kind of human "arms race" that could have changed the balance of power in the NYC Mafia. Result: Anastasia whacked Scalise, and the Commission put a lengthy freeze on families "making" new members.

Ok ok, now I'm confused. Was the outfit a Mafia Family or just a syndacite that had primarily italian members? I mean.. Don't all traditional mafia famalies have the same hierarchy? If the OUtfit didn't, wouldn't that make it an entireley seperate organization????

I'm seriously asking I really don't know.

Look higher up in this thread at my Sept. 19 post.

Ok so if it wasn't one under Torrio and Capone was it under the other leaders then?