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Vito - the hyper-controller? #504359
08/14/08 08:52 AM
08/14/08 08:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline OP
Underboss
Danito  Offline OP
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
We tend to call Michael the hyper-controller as if it was his second name. What about Vito? Was there anybody he trusted completely? Genco? Was he slippin' because after Genco's death there was no-one he could trust? He controlled both his capo-regimes, his sons, he even checked Tom's activities: The novel says that Vito tested Tom on what he would tell him about Sollozzo.

Re: Vito - the hyper-controller? [Re: Danito] #504361
08/14/08 09:40 AM
08/14/08 09:40 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Vito was a master at getting other people to bend to his will, but he did it in a more nuanced way than Michael. Look how he treated Bonasera, for example. Can you imagine Michael telling someone who needed a favor that he wanted his friendship first? Vito's M.O. was to give everyone a chance to settle things in a non-violent matter before using force.
For example he went to the bandleader and offered hin 10K to drop Johnny from his contract in the early 40's that was roughly the equivalent of $125,000. Only when he refused the favor did he bring in Luca Brasi. Same thing with Woltz. When he turned down Sollozzo he did so in a measured way. Compare that to the way Michael insulted Geary after he tried to shake him down. Vito would have never done that, and my guess is he would have compromised him as Michael did, but probably in a way that did not involve the murder of an innocent person.
Michael was more of a paranoid and one to kill anyone who stood in his way. I think Vito was more clever and a better Don. He certainly was a better husband and father.

As for trusting people, I believe he fully trusted Genco, Tom, and Michael. He loved Santino but recognized his shortcomings ditto for Connie and Fredo. Micheal neither loved nor trusted anyone.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Vito - the hyper-controller? [Re: dontomasso] #504420
08/14/08 01:55 PM
08/14/08 01:55 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 135
Texas
Lucchese Offline
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Great contrast there, DT. Michael was totally devoid of love for anyone, I would say even for his children. He viewed them simply as pawns in his power chess game, and a way to keep Kay in check. Vito, on the other hand, clearly loved his family, even Tom, and even his capos, with whom he went way, way back.

Also, Michael employed lying more frequently than Vito ever did. In fact, I don't recall Vito ever lying to those he dealt with, with the exception of him lying to the Commission when addressing Michael's murder of McCluskey and Sollozzo (correct me if I'm wrong - I am on a regular basis lol). Vito's MO lessened the need to lie, whereas Michael's MO placed him in the position to HAVE to lie at nearly every turn. No doubt in my mind that Vito was the better Don.


"The only wealth in this world is children. More than all the money and power on Earth." --Michael Corleone
Re: Vito - the hyper-controller? [Re: Lucchese] #504427
08/14/08 02:19 PM
08/14/08 02:19 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Originally Posted By: Lucchese
In fact, I don't recall Vito ever lying to those he dealt with, with the exception of him lying to the Commission when addressing Michael's murder of McCluskey and Sollozzo (correct me if I'm wrong - I am on a regular basis lol). Vito's MO lessened the need to lie, whereas Michael's MO placed him in the position to HAVE to lie at nearly every turn. No doubt in my mind that Vito was the better Don.



And that statement "clear him of all these false charges" was not really a lie. He prefaced it by saying Michael had to leave the country because of "all this Sollozzo business." What he was telling the commission was that he was going to use his political and judicial influence to clear Michael and bring him home. He was also issuing a threat that Mchael was to have safe passage. Of course in the novel the way Michael is cleared is very different, but that's another post.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Vito - the hyper-controller? [Re: dontomasso] #504504
08/14/08 06:47 PM
08/14/08 06:47 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Posts: 19,512
AZ
Compared with Michael, Vito was a big fish in a smaller pond. He limited his activities and was primarily concerned with securing what was his. His associates were long-termers. While every Mafia Don must be a controller, Vito, due to his years, position and length of association with subordinates, could afford to trust.

Michael was an over-reacher, constantly grasping for more, constantly getting deeply involved with more people in more diverse, complex and risky situations. I don't think he ever had the time, much less the inclination, to establish long-term, trusting relationships.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Vito - the hyper-controller? [Re: dontomasso] #504516
08/14/08 07:44 PM
08/14/08 07:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline OP
Underboss
Danito  Offline OP
Underboss
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Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Thanks for the interesting thoughts and comparisons. But who did Vito really trust?
Originally Posted By: dontomasso
As for trusting people, I believe he fully trusted Genco, Tom, and Michael.

He trusted Genco, and probably also Don Tomassino who risked his life for him. At the end of his life he trusted Michael. But I don't think he really completely trusted Tom. He couldn't trust him as a wartime consigliere. And he couldn't trust 100% his loyalty. I don't think Genco would have made the deal with Sollozzo against Vito's will, which was what Tom suggested to Sonny.

Last edited by Danito; 08/14/08 07:44 PM.
Re: Vito - the hyper-controller? [Re: Danito] #504545
08/15/08 03:12 AM
08/15/08 03:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 135
Texas
Lucchese Offline
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Good point about Tom. Michael was in the room after Vito was gunned down and all the guys were talking. He heard Tom tell Sonny, "if we lose the old man, you make the deal." Michael's distrust of Tom likely got it's origin in this very meeting, because of that line of advice. As a result, Michael witnessed first-hand Tom's inability to be a wartime consigliere, i.e., not going against the Don's wishes, no matter what the situation is, like Genco would have done. That's why Michael excluded Tom later on, and said so confidently, "you're not a wartime consigliere." Also, if you notice, Vito tells Tom that he has all of his confidence, but never mentions him having his TRUST. I'd bet dollars to donuts that Michael told Vito in private of Tom's advice to Sonny the day Vito nearly died.


"The only wealth in this world is children. More than all the money and power on Earth." --Michael Corleone
Re: Vito - the hyper-controller? [Re: Lucchese] #504566
08/15/08 09:10 AM
08/15/08 09:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Vito tells Tom:

1. That he never thought he was a bad consigliere, but that Santino was a bad Don.

2. That he (Tom) has all his confidence as does Michael.

3. That there are reasons Tom cannot be a part of what's going to happen (IMHO the reasons are one reason...Michael doesn't want him around).

So given all that I believe Vito trusted Tom even if he harbored unspoken doubts about whether he was an efective wartime consigliere.

Keep in mind when Tom is first introduced Michael tells Kay he is going to be consigliere, and he goes out of his way to mention that Tom is not a Sicilian. This shows Michael's less than high regard for Tom even before he gets into the family business.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Vito - the hyper-controller? [Re: dontomasso] #504608
08/15/08 11:24 AM
08/15/08 11:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
FrankWhite Offline
Capo
FrankWhite  Offline
Capo
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
Originally Posted By: dontomasso

Keep in mind when Tom is first introduced Michael tells Kay he is going to be consigliere, and he goes out of his way to mention that Tom is not a Sicilian. This shows Michael's less than high regard for Tom even before he gets into the family business.


good point DT... but I often wonder this... how/when is Tom consigliere??? We just take for granted that this is true, but I, honestly, never really bought that he was ever anything more than an "interim" consigliere. (and this may be a whole nother topic in and of itself, so I'll create ;-) )

Last edited by FrankWhite; 08/15/08 11:39 AM.

"From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn." (King of New York)
Re: Vito - the hyper-controller? [Re: FrankWhite] #504688
08/15/08 02:56 PM
08/15/08 02:56 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
This thoughtful thread points out a real-life reality for Mob bosses: they can never really be totally sure of anyone around them,can never totally trust or take the loyalty of anyone around them for granted--and probably never love too many people because of the real possibility that the loved one will either be killed or betray them. Clemenza was, with Tessio, Vito's oldest retainer, but when Vito was shot, the finger of suspicion pointed at him first. And even though it was Sonny who pointed it, Vito probably would have, too, if he'd been conscious.
OK, Tessio stayed loyal to Vito, but betrayed Michael after Vito died. But, after the Tahoe shooting in II, Michael tells Tom that he can't be sure of his "people because they're all businessmen, their loyalty is based on that. And that includes Neri, who (unlike Tom) was Michael's choice from the beginning.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

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