I think it's pretty silly fighting like this over a movie. For goodness sakes, it's not that serious.

That being said, I loved the movie, and will buy it in the future. Heath Ledger was awesome. So was Christian Bale, Aaron Eckhart, etc. I too don't wanna analyze it to death. It is just a reaally good movie. (In my opinion. )

"As a film"? As opposed to what?

That's a meaningless truism, and about as mediocre an argument as I've heard (and I've heard it several times elsewhere, too).

Cue: brief, weak rant on how films are for entertainment purposes, and that anything that finds "deeper meaning" (whatever that means) is watching films for something that they're not supposed to offer.

To paraphrase Marx, The Dark Knight is the opium of the (uneducated) masses.

I suspect this is because the film does not - cannot - hold its own under closer scrutiny.

Question: why do people post questions and analyses over on the Godfather forum, but refuse to look at The Dark Knight in the same way?

I love how quick the Godfather comparisons for this film were killed. And how its fans say, "It's just a ('reaally good') movie", nothing more, nothing less.

I found it hilarious in Batman Begins, though not as objectionable because the overall tone of that film wasn't as insidious or pretentious as The Dark Knight.

In commercial terms (not artistic terms), it makes sense that Begins leads to Knight. First, tame, solid film: success; now let's blow them all away with pseudo-intelligence (and dead actor).

They died down? Says who?

If anything, TDK is more a comic book movie attempt at HEAT, or 3-4 dynamic larger-than-life people in a saga set in one giant ass city.

As for GODFATHER, well I think it was Kevin Smith who called TDK the GF2 of that genre, and I think he's got a good argument for it.

What the fuck is the difference between self-importance and pretentiousness, beyond mere subjectivity?

Me. Look at this thread.

What?

On what grounds, quality alone? Thematic grounds offer nothing in the way of a comparison; aesthetically, they're worlds apart. I can only assume you mean in terms of technical quality, then; I can think of many films that are technically accomplished.

Very few of my problems with The Dark Knight are on formalist grounds.

I don't see how this question relates to any of my own; nor how it may in any way be a defence of The Dark Knight.

Self-importance and pretentious aren't very far away from one another; I think The Dark Knight is pretentious in its self-promotion of "serious psychological drama". You can't make serious psychological drama out of the Batman character. You can't make socially relevant and politically sophisticated drama out of Gotham City, either, for that matter.

We've been through this.

In other words, you don't have an answer.



Why, because you said so?

Oh please continue arguing on my behalf. Put any words in my mouth you see fit to help you argue against yourself.

Also, did you mean opiate of the masses?

All movies probably crack under close scrutiny. They're movies. None are perfect. And like I said, it's not that serious.

What you expect from the same guy who liked M:I 3 and its "vague creativity."

I mean I sorta liked that flick, but WTF does that term mean anyway?

Films are serious if you're passionate about them. You took the time to draw Elvira and Tony Montana... why? You were obviously serious enough about Scarface to take the time to turn them into a drawing (art). How is that different than taking the time to discuss movies (art)?

EXACTLY. It's only as serious as one is willing to take it.

I mean THE GODFATHER, when Brando has his great speech about why the Mob shouldn't deal narcotics. I mean even logic at the time would clearly state how silly that whole scene's idea is, because Mob will do anything for good money, and don't have any sort of ethics.

BUT, we loved that character, loved that movie, loved that mythic universe within it, we take Brando's unheeded advice to heart.

No, I did, and do. I don't see how your question - "what is the difference between self-importance and pretentiousness" - is related to whether or not The Dark Knight is pretentious.

Not because I said so per se, but I have said so, and nobody has argued against it. The only arguments that people have thrown back at me is that this is a film, and is therefore not to be taken seriously. That's as laughable as it is weak. Try and convince me how one can make plausible psychological drama out of the Batman character. Try and convince me Gotham City is a plausible fictional environment that can in someway mirror our own society.

That's what I'm getting at.

And saying, "Why aren't they, because you said so?" is equal to saying, "Why doesn't God exist, because you said so?"

There's no argument there. At all.

Ha, sorry. I was just jumping ahead because it's a tired, old argument that keeps popping up. "It's just a movie, deal with it". If that's the case, if we were to remove th author from any work, we could find enjoyment in pretty much anything; but we'd be ignoring its insidiousness.

It's a clear case of "dumbing down" for the sake of enjoying a movie. That we need to dumb down to enjoy the film is sign enough of its pretentiousness (because if we were to watch it in all seriousness, it'd reveal itself as utter shite).

For the record, I never felt the need to dumb down for the Burton films. I like Batman, a lot; I just don't see the need in making it more "adult" - which, in essence, is an impossibility.

("Why is it an impossibility? Because you said so?" LMFAO.)

Opium, opiate; it's been translated as both. (I don't speak German.)

'Nuff said on that, though. I wouldn't want to get into semantic pedantry.

Well, for me it's different because I am drawing these characters, but I am not getting into heated arguments to the point where I'm telling people to "shut the fuck up". I mean, all that isn't necessary. I do agree that if I love something enough to devote time to watching it constantly and writing stories about it(which I do) then yes, I do find it serious to a degree. But not to the point of cussing at someone or verbally insulting them because they don't agree with what I think about it, you know? It just comes to the point when you say to yourself, is it really worth getting that riled up over a movie, and when you look at the big scheme of things, no it isn't. I can enjoy it and devote my time to it, discuss it, but I don't need to get into fights about it.

Batman bent a gun in the movie. This is totally a serious movie.

haha

omfg, I luv this movie so much, my favorite film of all time now!!!! I watch it like a thousand times!

OMG!!! like, highfive!!