The novel makes it clear that Luca had extensive interaction with the Tattaglias for months before the meeting.

I hate to be the odd man out in this distinguished company, but...
...I don't believe Vito thought that his refusal would bring on a war, because if it did, he wouldn't have said "no," or at least not "no" outright. I believe it was part of his complacency--how he was slippin'--that he thought he could just say "no" and Sollozzo and Tattaglia would go away peacefully.

He sent Luca to find out what Tat and Sol had under their fingernails after Sonny made his fatal gaffe at the meeting. Vito said his first "no" to Sollozzo before Sonny's greed revealed the ch*nk in his armor. He was smart enough to see that Sonny's gaffe might put him in danger, but not smart enough to see the real threat.

Right but Luca was already in the building during the Sollozo meeting. So he must have intended to call on Luca to do something before Sonny made his 'gaffe'.

True enough TB. But, still, Vito could not have possibly thought that anyone would have bought Luca's story of dissatisfaction with the Corleones. And I just am not buying Vito's giving up his greatest asset just to find out if Sollozzo wants a war as some have suggested.

Well, the real reason that Luca was dispatched to meet with Sol and Tat was so that we could witness the unforgettable garrot-and-handstab scene--in other words, a filmic device. But, if it seems crazy that Vito would think they'd believe that Luca was ready to quit him and join them, and that Vito would give up his biggest asset to learn about the fingernail dirt, perhaps it was another sign that he was slippin'.

Speaking of that scene, how was the hitman able to sneak up on Luca? Everyone on that side of the bar had a wall of mirrors to stare into.

I can't think of any 'guise,' other than that of a traitor, which would enable Luca to obtain information from Sollozo/Tattaglia's mouth. How else could he get them to talk about the deal? If they did not think there was the possibility of swaying Luca over to their side they would not talk to him.

So in my opinion, although it was a risk for Vito, there would be no other 'angle' that Luca could play in order to infiltrate Sollozo&co and then obtain extrapolative information from them.

That's the whole point though. There was no way that Vito could have figured, imagined, or speculated that Sollozzo would believe for a second that Luca was going to betray Vito, directly or indirectly, unless Vito was slippin'. There was no way that Vito could figure, imagine, or speculate that Sollozzo was going to tell Luca anything of value unless Vito was slippin'.

Agreed. But in place of "slippin'" I would write "completely senile."

I see your logic Olivant, but I'm not willing to add this one to the always growing list of 'Puzo/FFC errors' b/c it still fits into the story.

1.)If Sollozo wants war then he will first whack Luca(who the don has delivered to him with a big red ribbon on top). Vito knows Sollozo will not buy the idea of Luca being a traitor and this is a bonus! It's a bonus b/c if Sollozo actually thinks Luca is recruitable, then he will try and recruit him, as opposed to whacking him out. (Sollozo whacking Luca is good for Vito b/c he is now aware of the impending war)

2.)As Turnbull said, maybe the old man was slippin'.

EDIT--Remember the comparison Puzo makes between Luca and Sonny. Neither are afraid of death, in fact they welcome it and are in search of it! Puzo describes Sonny's death as a sort of relief for him, something that finally controls all of the built up energy that he himself could never control. Death is the only thing that can relieve them of this burden of life. Luca did not fear death, he ONLY feared death at the hands of Don Corleone. Luca had no problem going on a suicide mission.

I am not willing to concede at all that Vito would sacrifice one of his most potent weapons just to find out if Sollozzo intended to make war unless Vito was indeed slippin'. As a dramatic artifice, it served FFC's screenplay. But a thinking Vito would never have done it.

I don't see this move by Vito as sacraficing Luca. This by no means was a sacraficial suicide mission. Michael sending Lampone into an airport, to kill Hyman Roth, with feds all around him, was a sacraficial suicide mission. But an attempt to infiltrate a family, over the course of 3 or 4 months, is not a sacraficial suicide mission.

I think that when we make observations such as this one, we fail to keep in mind that Luca was on this mission for 3 or 4 months, and did not attempt to carry it out over the course of a few days. That makes a big difference. If not Luca, then who else would Vito send? Others were either way too close to Vito or not close enough in the chain of command to make Sollozzo and company believe that they were thinking of switching sides. Had close people like Tessio or Clemenza been sent on a mission like that, Sollozzo and company would have never believed them from the get go. And sending someone not close enough to Vito would be fruitless because Sollozzo and company would have no use for someone like that. So someone like Luca may have actually been the perfect choice for a job like this one.

Keep in mind that Luca was one of the most powerful assets that Vito had, and the other families knew it. It had to have already been part of Sollozzo, Barzini and Tattaglia's plan to neutralize Luca in some way. As I've said in other posts, that part of the plan by Sollozzo and company was to take out Luca no matter what because with Luca out of the way it would make the odds better for Sollozzo and company to defeat the Corleones. Therefore I think, that no matter if Sollozzo and company believed Luca or not, their plan was to take him out regardless.

After reading some posts and re-thinking the whole situation, I have to now agree that Vito was slipping and did NOT realize that there was going to be a war. For if he did, he would have never been caught off guard, the way that he was, when he was shot. If he really and truly suspected that a war was going to start, he would have never left himself as vulnerable as he did.


Don Cardi

Vito knew their plan was to take Luca out regardless. Then by sheer logic alone the mission would have to be sacraficial b/c Vito & Luca both knew that Sollozo would take him out when given the chance.

Luca was indeed staking them out for a few months, I imagine the Turk was using this time to make Vito think that things had cooled down a bit. That he was taking the Luca bait possibly, and that with the few month time period passed it would appear that Sollozo had moved along, away from Vito to someone else.




Again, this was some time after the initial meeting w/ Sollozo. Vito might have bought into the idea that Sollozo was indeed moving on. Plus, most importantly, Vito was waiting for the Luca hit to signify the start of the war. If he had gotten word of the Luca hit then he would have known to take cover. But, the word never came b/c Sollozo whacked them both in the same time period.
To quote my favorite BB poster--"Clever Sollozo!"

Ice, you, I and everyone else know that Sollozzo planned to kill Vito, and probably came to that decision after Vito said no and Sonny betrayed his greed. Therefore, we know that Luca was doomed when he went to meet with Sol and Tat.

But Vito didn't know it. When he called Luca in, he said, "I'm a little worried about this Sollozzo fella...[emphasis added]" He should have been a lot worried. That's why he was slippin'.

...with a name like barzini you wouldn't think he'd need vito to "share" any judges at all...

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Agreed TB, but I still say clever Sollozo, b/c if he had not corresponded the hit times so well then Vito knows to take cover.

So...I still think Vito's plan COULD have been two-fold. The first to see what Sollozo had under his fingernails. The second, which Vito did NOT EXPECT to need, was Luca the sacrificial guinea pig (who's death would signal the start of the great war).