When Sonny and Michael see each other the last time, Sonny says: "I'll get a message to that girlfriend, when I think the time is right."
Do you think he kept his promise?

I imagine he died before the time was right.

I doubt he ever was able to. Sonny's death notwithstanding, why would Kay have come to Long Beach to give Hagen her letter for Michael if she had heard from Sonny? Her trip to the mall was a result of her not hearing anything about Michael since the Sollozo murder.

Well, that accounts for the time that elapsed between Michael's departure and Kay's appearance at the mall. It does not account for the time that elapsed between Kay's appearance at the mall and Sonny's death.

Great question, especially in light of the fact Sonny said this to Mike in the presence of Tom, who later refused to accept a letter from Kay to Michael because he believed if he even took the letter they could prove in a court of law that he knew Michael's whereabouts. My guess is he let it go when saying goodbye to Michael but later told Sonny thathe could not get word to her, and obviously he didn't because when Kay showed up unannounced at the mall she was complaining that no one had returned her calls or otherwise responded to het repeated requests about Michael.
It odd too that Tom thought he could tell her that Michael was "all right," but nothing more. If Kay had been subpoenaed and was forced to testify she would have had to tell the court that Tom Hagen admitted he knew that Michael was "all right."
Such an admission against interest would be circumstantial evidence to show Tom did know where Michael was, or at least knew hw to contact someone who did.

Yes, it's one of the plot gaps in the film. But the novel provides more detail:

SPOILERS:

In the novel, Kay returns to her parents' home in New Hampshire right after the shooting. About 3-4 weeks later, she's visited by two NYC detectives, who tell her they believe Michael killed Mac and Sol, and ask her if she knows his whereabouts. Kay tells them Michael couldn't have killed the two--and that they're going to be married. So, I infer that Kay at that point was simply biding her time, believing what Michael had told her before the shooting: that he needed to be with his family in their time of trouble.

Three days later she shows up at the Mall with the letter that Tom refuses to accept. Sonny was alive at that time, but not at the Mall (or not in Kay's presence). Obviously he hadn't found the right time to get in touch with her, or maybe Tom had convinced him to drop it for the reasons discussed above. Mama comes out and tells Kay to forget about Michael. She infers that he really did kill Sol and Mac.

Then, apparently, about two years went by, with Kay calling the Mall on and off, and not getting anywhere. She visits NYC one day, and calls Mama one last time. Mama tells her Michael's home, and has been home for six months. Kay is stunned and angered, but Mama tells Kay to come to the Mall anyway--to visit her. That's how Kay and Michael reconnect.

well, (without reading TB's post labeled "spoiler", as i have yet to finish the novel), I would have to say that the time was never right... and the time would have NEVER been right for Kay to get such a message because even after Michael was safe enough... he was a married man so it was moot by that time.

I remember the part Turnbull explained, but I had forgotten that the time frame of her showing up at the mall was only 3 days after the detectives came to her house. The film affords the viewer no such clarification as to the timeframe of when Kay came to the mall.

Frank White's last post raised a question I had not considered until now: did the rest of the Corleone's ever know that Michael was married in Sicily? I would assume so through Don Tomassino. Maybe Mama never knew that Michael was married and her advice to Kay in the novel was because Mama truly believed Michael murdered McCluskey and Sollozzo.

Did the Barzini's and other Corleone enemies know that Michael was married or was the car bomb meant exclusively for Michael, with Apollonia being an accidental victim? Again, I would presume it was no secret to his enemies and that they could have found out when Fabrizzio turned traitor.

Interesting point.

I always read Mama's discouragment of Kay as based on Michael's descent into the family business, but I don't remember the novel well enough to be sure.

As for Apollonia, it is clear in the movie that she is an innocent victim, as Fabrizio asks Michael whether she will be in the car. Which raises another question: Would Fabrizio have put the assassination on hold if Appollonia was going with Michael? Hard to believe, but why else would he have asked?

Don Tomassino, as Michael's protector, had to have reported his interest in Apollonia. If the Corleones objected, Don Tomassino probably would have tried to nip the courtship in the bud--perhaps even arranging for Apollonia to leave Sicily. But I'm sure the Corleones approved enthusisastically--Michael was going to marry a real Sicilian girl, not a "washed-out rag of an American girl," as the novel put it. (BTW: in a deleted scene from GF, Vito asks Michael after Connie's wedding: "Did your American girlfriend get home all right?", then rolls his eyes contemptuously. Note how Kay never appears in any scenes with Vito except in the family photos at the wedding--and at his funeral.)


The enemies had to know that Michael was married because his wedding was a public event for the entire town of Corleone. Just as Vito had allies in Sicily, so did Barzini and probably the other Dons. It would have been easy for them to probe for a ch**k in Don Tomassino's armor, and to recruit Fabrizio.
I doubt that Barzini, through Fabrizio, intended to harm Apollonia--but, like Roth's attack on Michael's bedroom in II: too bad if someone got in the way.

I have to admit that I forgot about the public wedding Michael and Applie had. It's a bit surprising that Michael would take such an enormous risk given his penchant for secrecy and calculating manner that we later see.

I never realized the point Turnbull mentioned re: Kay and Vito never appeared together in in the film accept in the family photo. Thanks for the details, Turnbull!

Dontomassino was a conduit to the Corleones in NY, after all he brought Michael the news about Sonny's death, and later had to play a role in engineering things to get him out of Sicily and on his way back to the US. So I assume the family knew Michael
was marrying a Sicilian girl, who I am sure Dontomassino had checked out, and I believe they would have approved.

As for the public wedding, we have to assume it was thrown by her family, who may or may not have been "connected" thmselves.
I would imagine Dontomassino made serious security arrangements.


Finally as for TB's insight that we only see Kay and Vito together for the photo probably shows that Vito didnt fully approve of this American girlfriend. Its odd in a way because Vito wanted him to be Senator Corleone, and a WASP wife would have been a political asset. I think eventually he resigns hmself to the marriage, and toward the end he asks Michael if he's happy with his wife, almost as if to say, "Ok, if she makes you happy then I am happy for you."

Sonny said that to comfort Michael before Mike was going to do something hard. That's all it was.

I believe you'r right about that. Otherwise, we're probably reading to much into Sonny's statement.

When you get right down to it, it would have been impossible for a stranger's presence to go unnoticed in a small town in 1946 Sicily. Even if Michael had stayed within the walls of Don Tomassino's villa, those going in and out would have noticed. On the other hand, Sicilians were (and probably still are) acutely aware that "loose lips sink ships," especially since Michael was under the protection of the local gaboletto. So, the public wedding was not a real sacrifice of security. And anyway, note that Cal and Fab carried their luparas with them, even as they emerged from church--another nice little warning to the loose-lipped.

I always thought that more than the Thunderbolt was at work in Michael's choice of Apollonia, and to have a public wedding. After coming over to the Family ("I'm with you now, Pop"), he may have consciously or unconsciously been rediscovering and aggressively embracing his roots. Being in Sicily surely helped. By falling for a young Sicilian girl, courting Apollonia in the old-fashioned way, and having a public wedding, Michael was showing respect and welcoming acceptance of his Sicilian heritage--almost as if he were re-emphasizing that he was now "with" Vito.

Two other interesting nuances in the scene with Sr. Vitelli (one of the best scenes in the Trilogy, IMO):

--Michael freely admits to Vitelli that he's "hiding from the police of my country." Vitelli doesn't take that as a disqualification for courting his daughter--not at all. No doubt an accurate statement of a Sicilian's instinctive distrust of government, for which they'd had centuries of justification.
--Michael immediately says that the information "would be worth a lot of money...but then your daughter would lose a father instead of gaining a husband." Here we see inexperienced Michael violating one of Vito's cardinal rules: never make an unncessary threat. Later, the more experienced Michael doesn't rise to Moe Green's taunts and threats with his own--he knows what he has to do. Ditto Tom earlier with Woltz.

When you get right down to it, it would have been impossible for a stranger's presence to go unnoticed in a small town in 1946 Sicily. Even if Michael had stayed within the walls of Don Tomassino's villa, those going in and out would have noticed. On the other hand, Sicilians were (and probably still are) acutely aware that "loose lips sink ships," especially since Michael was under the protection of the local gabbellotto. So, the public wedding was not a real sacrifice of security. And anyway, note that Cal and Fab carried their luparas with them, even as they emerged from church--another nice little warning to the loose-lipped.

I always thought that more than the Thunderbolt was at work in Michael's choice of Apollonia, and to have a public wedding. After coming over to the Family ("I'm with you now, Pop"), he may have consciously or unconsciously been rediscovering and aggressively embracing his roots. Being in Sicily surely helped. By falling for a young Sicilian girl, courting Apollonia in the old-fashioned way, and having a public wedding, Michael was showing respect and welcoming acceptance of his Sicilian heritage--almost as if he were re-emphasizing that he was now "with" Vito.

Two other interesting nuances in the scene with Sr. Vitelli (one of the best scenes in the Trilogy, IMO):

--Michael freely admits to Vitelli that he's "hiding from the police of my country." Vitelli doesn't take that as a disqualification for courting his daughter--not at all. No doubt an accurate statement of a Sicilian's instinctive distrust of government, for which they'd had centuries of justification.
--Michael immediately says that the information "would be worth a lot of money...but then your daughter would lose a father instead of gaining a husband." Here we see inexperienced Michael violating one of Vito's cardinal rules: never make an unncessary threat. Later, the more experienced Michael doesn't rise to Moe Green's taunts and threats with his own--he knows what he has to do. Ditto Tom earlier with Woltz.

Good points all. Depite any amorous stirrings in Michael's loins, I too think that his marrying a Sicilian woman was part of his game plan.

But Michael doesn't convince Greene, Tom doesn't convince Woltz. A man and a horse have to die.

Yes, but without uttering a threat. Without giving either one of them a hint that something was going to happen. By not making a threat, or showing emotion, they led both into thinking that they were not as strong as was thought, or as they once were. But the end result.....The Corleone's wind up with what they want anyway. Green and Woltz may have won the battle, but the Corleones wound up winning the war.

Yes, that's exactly the point: Making threats exposes feelings and intent, gives warnings--and time for the other guy to plan, react, defend.
Danito, are you suggesting that if Tom and Michael had threatened Woltz and Moe, respectively, the outcome would have been different?

Dontomasso wrote:

It odd too that Tom thought he could tell her that Michael was "all right," but nothing more. If Kay had been subpoenaed and was forced to testify she would have had to tell the court that Tom Hagen admitted he knew that Michael was "all right."
Such an admission against interest would be circumstantial evidence to show Tom did know where Michael was, or at least knew hw to contact someone who did.

that would never fly in a court of law....
saying that someone is alright. and saying you know where someone is, are two differen't things.
example:
say your dog is missing. I am not going to tell you "oh your dog is probable lying in the road dead! or has been kidnapped!" I would tell you "don't worry your dog is alright".
human nature.
Hagen handeled it perfectly.

You should be more prudent. There can be quite a difference between the effect of acts or words in a legal hearing and those same acts or words when pedestrian.

As an attorney, Tom knew that such an admission about Michael could make him quite legally vulnerable. Thus the statement would be considered to be true and probative. He should have known better. DT's right.

Well, let's analyse it.
1) The Tom-Woltz-Situation: In fact, Tom is threatening Woltz, though not openly. When Woltz says in the beginning: "Are you trying to muscle me?", he really gets the point. That's what Tom, the smooth talking sonofabitch is trying to do. Later, during the dinner, Woltz even refers to the bandleader story. So he just underestimates Corleone's power, while Tom had underestimated Woltz' vanity. Tom's strategy was half successful, he had to show Woltz the instruments.
2) As far as I can see, it's not clear what Michael's visit in Vegas was all about. If it was only about the hotels and the casinos, if he had only come to "buy Green out", then he behaved like a beginner. Why making Moe an enemy? He knew that Fredo was weak, so why didn't he talk to him before he spoke to Moe Green, so that he could be sure that Fredo would keep his mouth shut? Why did he mention that Green slapped Fredo? UNLESS: All that was meant to show that Michael was weak. Also, Michael WAS in fact threatening Green. When he said: "I'm leaving tomorrow, think about a price.", it means he doesn't really care about Green.

Moe Green was already the enemy. He had already talked to Barzini and he knew the very real possibility of defying the Corleones.

It was not a pure threat, it was actually a show of Sicilian sensibilities. Obviously Michael was an important person with body guards, etc. Vitelli was a small time restaurant owner whose daughter was of age to be married. Micahel was showing his respect for Vitelli by telling him he wanted to court and marry his daughter, thus ensuring her (they thought) a prosperous and long life. He certainly had more to offer her than any local kid in that two mule town.

Hmm. I don't see the threat as a necessary manifest of importance. The novel points out that there were plenty of cues for Vitelli to pick up on regarding Michael's importance plus the fact that Vitelli would be able to verify Michael's bonafides.

Agreed Olivant. It was proposed that Michael had violated one of Vito's cardinal rules by making a threat, but I didn't see it that way with Vitelli.

...which is why I thought the threat was gratuitous. Also, not the most inviting way to get your future father-in-law to bless your marriage to his daughter--especially since you two have never met before.

Speaking of Kay...

I think (Diane Keaton) she looks pretty hot for being 62!