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Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30024
06/27/05 12:54 AM
06/27/05 12:54 AM
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Sammy, welcome to the boards. I agree with you that because we like the people who were involved in making the film, we want to justify their bad choices. But this film was not just about the downward curve of michael corleone, it also parallels that of coppola and pacino.

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30025
06/27/05 09:53 AM
06/27/05 09:53 AM
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DeathByClotheshanger Offline OP
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Quote
I suspect those who actually try to defend this film only feel compelled to do so because FC, Pacino and Puzo were involved in its making. If it was an identical film directed and written by someone else (but still without Duval and with Sofia Coppola), I have no doubt that literally almost everyone would have been listing it as one of the "worst sequels of all time", next to such antifavorites as "Highlander II" or "Batman and Robin"...
To each his own.

I like the movie because despite its flaws -- it's still good. The same can't be said for a movie like The Phantom Menace (the kid was worse than Sophia, BTW).

Perhaps this movie would satisfy the haters if it were scaled down by a half hour, hell, I might like it a lot better that way too.

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30026
06/27/05 10:05 AM
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Here is Roger Ebert's review of Part III.

He also ultimately gave it a better review than Part II (which I strongly disagree with) ***1/2 to ***.

I'm not posting this to prove a point, just to further the discussion.

Quote
Cast & Credits
Michael Corleone: Al Pacino
Kay: Diane Keaton
Connie: Talia Shire
Vincent Mancini: Andy Garcia
Mary Corleone: Sofia Coppola
Don Altobello: Eli Wallach
Joey Zasa: Joe Mantegna

Paramount Pictures Presents A Film Produced And Directed By Francis Ford Coppola. Photographed By Gordon Willis. Written By Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola. Edited By Barry Malkin, Lisa Fruchtman And Walter Murch. Original Music By Carmine Coppola. Running Time: 162 Minutes. Classified R.

"The Godfather, Part III" continues the Corleone family history in 1979, as the sins of the parents are visited upon the children. Despite every attempt to go legit, to become respectable, the past cannot be silenced. The family has amassed unimaginable wealth, and as the film opens Michael Corleone (Al Pacino) is being invested with a great honor by the church. Later that day, at a reception, his daughter announces a Corleone family gift to the church and the charities of Sicily, "a check in the amount of $100 million." But the Corleones are about to find, as others have throughout history, that you cannot buy forgiveness. Sure, you can do business with evil men inside the church, for all men are fallible and capable of sin. But God does not take payoffs.

Michael is older now and walks with a stoop. He has a diabetic condition. He has spent the years since "The Godfather, Part II" trying to move the family out of crime and into legitimate businesses. He has turned over a lot of the old family rackets to a new generation, to people like Joey Zasa (Joe Mantegna), who is not scrupulous about dealing dope, who is capable of making deals that would offend the fastidious Michael. It is Michael's dream, now that he senses his life is coming to a close, that he can move his family into the light.

But the past is seductive. Because Michael knows how to run a Mafia family, there is great pressure on him to do so. And throughout "Godfather III" we are aware of the essential tragedy of this man, the fact that the sins that stain his soul will not wash off - especially the sin of having ordered the death of his brother Fredo.

Michael is positioned in the story between two characters who could come from "King Lear" - his daughter, Mary (Sofia Coppola), whom he loves and wants to give his kingdom to, and Sonny's son, Vincent (Andy Garcia), who sees the death of his enemies as the answer to every question. Michael is torn between the futures represented by the two characters, between Mary, quiet and naive, and the hot-blooded Vincent. And when Vincent seduces Mary and makes her his own, Michael's plans begin to go wrong.

There is also Kay Corleone (Diane Keaton), of course, still the woman Michael loves, and the mother of his children. He wants their son, Anthony, to join the family business. She defends his ambition to be an opera singer. They face each other like skilled opponents.

Perhaps she even still loves him, too, or would if she did not know him so well. She is the only person who can tell Michael what she really thinks, and in one of those dark, gloomy rooms, she lets him know that it doesn't matter what grand order he is invested in by the church, he is at heart still a gangster. The best scenes in "Godfather III" are between these two, Michael and Kay, Pacino and Keaton, fiercely locked in a battle that began too many years ago, at that wedding feast where Michael told Kay he was not part of his family business.

The plot of the movie, concocted by Coppola and Mario Puzo in a screenplay inspired by headlines, brings the Corleone family into the inner circles of corruption in the Vatican. Actual events - the untimely suddenness of John Paul I's death, the scandals at the Vatican Bank, the body of a Vatican banker found hanging from a London bridge - are cheerfully intertwined with the Corleone's fictional story, and it is suggested that the Vatican lost hundreds of millions in a fraud. We eavesdrop on corrupt Vatican officials, venal cardinals scheming in the vast Renaissance palaces that dwarf them, and we travel to Sicily so that Michael Corleone can consult with Don Tommasino, his trusted old friend, to discover who is plotting against him within the Mafia council.

They are so seductive, these byzantine intrigues. Alliances are forged with a pragmatic decision, betrayed with sudden violence.

Always there is someone in a corner, whispering even more devious advice. This trait of operatic plotting and betrayal is practiced beautifully by Connie Corleone (Talia Shire), Michael's sister, who has turned in middle age into a fierce, thin-faced woman in black, who stands in the deepest shadows, who schemes and lobbies for her favorites - especially for Vincent, whom she wants Michael to accept and embrace.

In the "Godfather" movies Coppola has made a world. Because we know it so intimately, because its rhythms and values are instantly recognizable to us, a film like "The Godfather Part III" probably works better than it should. If you stand back and look at it rationally, this is a confusing and disjointed film. It is said that Coppola was rewriting it as he went along, and indeed it lacks the confident forward sweep of a film that knows where it's going.

Some of the dialogue scenes, especially in the beginning, sound vaguely awkward; the answers do not fit the questions, and conversations seem to have been rewritten in the editing room. Other shots - long shots, into the light, so we cannot see the characters' lips -- look suspiciously like scenes that were filmed first and dubbed later. The whole ambitious final movement of the film - in which two separate intrigues are intercut with the progress of an opera being sung by Anthony -- is intended to be suspenseful but is so confusing, we are not even sure which place (Sicily, Rome, London?) one of the intrigues is occurring. The final scene of the movie, which is intended to echo Marlon Brando's famous death scene, is perfunctory and awkward.

And yet it's strange how the earlier movies fill in the gaps left by this one, and answer the questions. It is, I suspect, not even possible to understand this film without knowing the first two, and yet, knowing them, "Part III" works better than it should, evokes the same sense of wasted greatness, of misdirected genius. Both Don Vito Corleone and Don Michael Corleone could have been great men. But they lacked that final shred of character that would have allowed them to break free from their own pasts. Or perhaps their tragedies were dictated by circumstances. Perhaps they were simply born into the wrong family.

And so here we are back again, in the rich, deep brown rooms inhabited by the Corleone family, the rooms filled with shadows and memories, and regretful decisions that people may have to die. We have been taught this world so well by Francis Ford Coppola that we enter it effortlessly has there ever before been a film saga so seductive and compelling, so familiar to us that even after years we remember all of the names of the players? Here, for example, is a new character, introduced as "Sonny's illegitimate son," and, yes, we nod like cousins at a family reunion, yes, he does seem a lot like Sonny.

He's the same kind of hotheaded, trigger-happy lunatic.

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30027
06/27/05 10:08 AM
06/27/05 10:08 AM
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Quote
Originally posted by Sammy the Bull:
I suspect those who actually try to defend this film only feel compelled to do so because FC, Pacino and Puzo were involved in its making. If it was an identical film directed and written by someone else (but still without Duval and with Sofia Coppola), I have no doubt that literally almost everyone would have been listing it as one of the "worst sequels of all time"
I respectfully disagree with a statement like that which generalizes the reason that some may like or defend this film. There are many legitimate reasons that people like or defend this film for. As I've posted many times before I personally liked the idea of Michael seeking redemption, forgiveness, and closure. I also liked the plot regarding the Vatican and it's dealings and underhandedness with the mob. There is no question that GFIII does not, in any way, live up to it's first two namesakes, and that it was basically thrown together at the last minute, but it is a pretty decent film and it is what it is, a third film. How many third films have come close to their first two films? Not many at all. The Godfather III gets a terrible rap because many who first went to see it set out doing so in the expectaion of it fullfilling their own high hopes of it being a GFI or GFII.

It being a FFC / Puzo film has NOTHING to do with one liking it or defending it.


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Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30028
06/27/05 11:01 AM
06/27/05 11:01 AM
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I must agree with you, DC. The film has potential to be a great film. The whole concept of Michael trying to make peace with his past is an excellent basis for the end of the trilogy, as well as the idea that he **SPOILER ALERT**
**SPOILER ALERT** **SPOILER ALERT**


had to sacrifice his child to pay for those sins is quite interesting. If FFC had cast someone else as Mary and eliminated the whole incest plotline, I wonder if we would have the same negative feelings toward the film.


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Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30029
06/27/05 12:34 PM
06/27/05 12:34 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
If FFC had cast someone else as Mary and eliminated the whole incest plotline, I wonder if we would have the same negative feelings toward the film.
SB, does the idea of incest itself in GF3 bother you or do you think that the plot based on incest was bad? I think that there should have been a very casual reference to incest or even better just hint it and leave it to the viewer to interpret/imagine.

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30030
06/27/05 01:28 PM
06/27/05 01:28 PM
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SV, It's hard to distinguish the two, perhaps because Sophia's acting was so painful to watch. Do I believe it's posible for two relatives who were not raised together to feel an attraction to one another? Although the idea can be repulsive, it is conceivable. Perhaps a better actress could have made that plotline work, but I guess we'll never know.


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Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30031
06/27/05 01:42 PM
06/27/05 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
Perhaps a better actress could have made that plotline work, but I guess we'll never know.
Sometimes I wonder if there was an intention by FFC to make us repel and look at, in disgust, the acting in the parts that cover the incestual sub plot of the movie. Sophia is so goo goo eyed over her cousin Vincent that it makes you sick to watch her act in those parts of the movie. Maybe the real intent by FFC worked after all.


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Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30032
06/27/05 02:06 PM
06/27/05 02:06 PM
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I don't know. I think that we're supposed to feel the anguish of forbidden love, and not whiny gnocchi making. lol

Seriously, though, I think it is supposed to be anguish for the two of them. Vincent promises that he will not go near her any longer, and she doesn't understand his rebuff. Although I think that Andy Garcia does a commendable job with his sad eyes, I think that Sophia, rather than playing that scene like an innocent young girl who doesn't understand his rejection, plays it like a whiny brat who has been denied a new pair of Manolo's.


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Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30033
06/30/05 11:49 AM
06/30/05 11:49 AM
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A lot of good points made here, pro and con. One of the most annoying mistakes in GFIII is the way Vincent dumps Mary. He decides the best time to tell her is as she is entering the opera house, and he more or less says, "oh...by the way, its over between us. Go love someone else." He then puts on his baaaaad hard ass face and poor Mary goes into the box to watch the show. A few scenes later, Mary is enduring the opera, and inexplicably Vincent puts his hand on her shoulder. What the hell kind of mixed message is that?

Knowing that he had to protect Michael from an assassination attempt, and knowing that "everyone" had to get themselves into their car and get out of there and go back to the Villa, the smart thing for Vincent to do would have been to wait until the opera thing was over, the assassin was uncovered, and then break it off. Of course had he done that Mary wouldn't have been whining when she should have been rushing into the car, and she might have avoided getting shot.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30034
06/30/05 02:23 PM
06/30/05 02:23 PM
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You know, I was never bothered by the love story between Mary and Vincent. Maybe it's the music. It could make any love story sound that much more romantic. Even though Vincent and Mary's relationship was a little creepy, it never really bothered me and with Winona Ryder in the role, it would have been fine, IMO.

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30035
07/01/05 03:50 PM
07/01/05 03:50 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by DeathByClotheshanger:
Maybe it's the music.
You mean the Elvis Costello??


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30036
07/02/05 01:42 AM
07/02/05 01:42 AM
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Originally posted by dontomasso:

Knowing that he had to protect Michael from an assassination attempt, and knowing that "everyone" had to get themselves into their car and get out of there and go back to the Villa, ......
Why did michael go to the opera knowing well that there were assasins ready to whack him? Or why didn't vincent surround michael with a dozen buttons instead of keeping them in some corners of opera house?

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30037
07/02/05 08:25 PM
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leigh

i agree with you on the flow of GIII, (1st) they should not have waited so long to do


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Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30038
07/02/05 08:33 PM
07/02/05 08:33 PM
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i agree with you on the flow of GIII, (1st) they should not have waited so long to do GII. It should have been done in the very early 80'2. (2) They should have had led in the characters of Luca Brazi, Al Neri, Vincent Mancini w/ some deleted material type of clips or had more background to them in either GI or GII. (3) The deleted clips that were provided in the bonus material should have been put into the regular movie. (3) I think that they should have had some type of relationship between Connie and Johnny Fontane - you can see how she reacts and feels about him in all 3 movies when he is around that it would have been better than her being alone. (4) The relationship between Mary and Vincent should have been avoided. (5) The choice for family counsel should have been better than Geroge Hamilton.


Guiseppe Petri
Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30039
02/19/06 11:50 PM
02/19/06 11:50 PM
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Wow. I just finished reading the whole discussion. I searched "reviews" trying to find some discussion and reviews on GFIII because obviously, them majority of the message board hates it or strongly dislike it ... anyway, I'm just going to go ahead and post. *feeling a bit guilty having to resurrect an ancient discussion*

DeathByClotheshanger posted Roger Ebert's review, which I have read in the past and I am quite surprised he enjoyed it more than GFII. I think Ebert's review was right on the point, though. I personally don't prefer GFIII over GFII or even the first one, but technically, I treat it as a film of itself and I expect Ebert did too. I mean -- if we changed the title, the characters' names and cut out all the misplaced flashback scenes looking nostalgically to the first two movies it's going to be a very differnt movie.

I think the main weakness of the film is that they waited too long to make it. Too bad FFC didn't go into financial problems earlier. I mean, when you compare a film from the 70's to the 90's it's obviously a very differnt era of filmmaking. The dialogue would be weak and not as crisp -- after two films of masterpiece cinema, you run out of words to say. Judging from the trailer of GFIII, it was probably meant to be a 90's Hollywood blockbuster. It even opened on Christmas Day and we all know what that means -- it was even aiming for an Oscar nom! Eventually it earned 7 of them and won none.

As for the plot -- I didn't understand it the first time around but then when I watched it the second time, it "kind of" made sense. But I've got the overview of it on the Film Studies section of SparkNotes (which is actually a very good read).

I might be the only one, but I found Sofia Coppola's (YES -- it's spelt SOFIA!!!) acting not as bad as everyone here thought. I don't think Winona Ryder could of had made it "better" -- I mean, her lines were terrible! They were just ... dreadful (even compared to the overall dialogue in film, it seriously sucked). Being familiar with Ryder's acting, I can't say she could of had made it better. Considering Sofia Coppola isn't the world's most experienced actress, what can we possibly expect from her?

There is also the incest relationship, which everyone seems to be going "ewwwwwwww..." over. I have to admit: I enjoyed the incest bits. They were kind of sweet, haha. Even though that would never had happened in the universe of the first two films, it "fits in" to the third film. I think that was one of the more entertaining aspects of the film. And for what dontomasso said about how Vincent dumped Mary -- hey, when did Vincent ever become the smartest guy in the world? Yeah, sure he envolved into a calculating don in a few short weeks, but still: He still got a lot to learn.

So a thumb up for me on GFIII -- I enjoyed the film as whole and I didn't really care for the plot. I liked how the film was quite peaceful and I liked how Michael was seeking redempmtion and had him go through an emotional journey. It was good to watch and I'm happy I stopped avoiding it smile Other than that, I thought there were some priceless scenes, all coming from Al Pacino. And another thing I agree with Ebert with was the scenes with Michael and Kay (Diane Keaton) -- totally out-of-character for Michael, but still, I liked watching those scenes. I even had some nice chuckles throughout the film, which is actually a nice relief from the darkness of depth from the first two. The film had a great "look" to it too. But at the end, I even shed a tear or two.

As for what Moscarelli said about to be a true fan you must be fond of all three -- I disagree. I think Part III isn't for everybody -- I'm just lenient grin

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30040
02/20/06 01:05 PM
02/20/06 01:05 PM
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Sofia played the somewhat spoled daughter of a prominent Italian...in other words she was playing herself...she didnt even have to act, just like Johnny Fontaine in that Woltz production.

Sofia was not as bad as some people say, and GFIII was not as bad as some people say.

All in all GFIII was an ok movie, maybe even a good movie, but it does not compare to the first two, and thats why it is disappointing.

To me GFIII is analagous to watching a great fighter who fights one bout too many after his prime.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30041
03/02/06 05:40 PM
03/02/06 05:40 PM
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I just can't bring myself to say I hate III as much as I think oh it's not as good as the others You have to love it, It is all in all a great movie


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Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30042
03/02/06 08:58 PM
03/02/06 08:58 PM
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Part III is a mistake that should NEVER have been made. At the very mention of Part III, my mind cries WHY OH WHY OH WHY? What were they THINKING? The perfect, tragic ending to the saga was in Part II. End of story. Let the viewer's imagination ponder over what became of Michael and his family.

Part III is the cinematic equivalent of sending the wrong man to the gallows. It's a horrible wrong that is irreversible and can't be undone. It disturbs the magic of The Godfather masterpiece and explains away complexities and themes that were so delicately nuanced in the closing images of Part II.

And you know what's really wrong with Part III? Al Pacino doesn't look the same way he did in 1972-74. It's a shame time has to age us [Linked Image].

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30043
03/02/06 09:05 PM
03/02/06 09:05 PM
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The tragedy of GFIII is not so much that it was made, but that were it not for serious miscasting and mediocre writing and the absence of Robert Duvall...it could have been SO MUCH BETTER!!!!

Apple


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- THOMAS JEFFERSON

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30044
03/02/06 09:54 PM
03/02/06 09:54 PM
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Ofcourse I would have loved to watch Duvall in GF3, but his absence didn't affect the movie so much I think. With all the immobilaire-luchessi-altobello plot going on, Duvall could not have saved it, unless his screen time was increased to such an extent that those boring plots were heavily edited short.

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30045
03/02/06 10:55 PM
03/02/06 10:55 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by svsg:
... I would have loved to watch Duvall in GF3, but his absence didn't affect the movie so much I think ...
Sure it did. For the simple reason that in his place we were given George Hamilton.

Apple


A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

- THOMAS JEFFERSON

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30046
03/10/06 12:23 AM
03/10/06 12:23 AM
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flucko Offline
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George Hamilton was a terrible replacement to Duvall's brilliant portrayal of Tom Hagen. It would of had been interesting if the writers actually did something with Hagen's son instead of having him popping up in some scenes and eventually disappearing forever.

I think one of GFIII's weaknesses were the characters -- they had so many characters but so little time for organiziation! If they had made the new characters interesting and used them throughout the film, I think we would of had been surprised what GFIII could of became.

But personally, it is quite a loss that Hagen wasn't in the script because Duvall wasn't interested. I don't know if it could have saved the hate to the film, but maybe a little, I guesss.

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30047
03/10/06 01:56 AM
03/10/06 01:56 AM
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Signor Vitelli Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by flucko: ...it is quite a loss that Hagen wasn't in the script because Duvall wasn't interested.
From what I've read, it wasn't that Duvall wasn't interested. After paying hefty salaries to Pacino and Keaton to reprise their roles, there wasn't enough cash left to meet Duvall's financial demands. A pity, IMHO, because I feel the film truly suffered for not having the character of Tom Hagen in it. George Hamilton was a poor substitute.

I do not despise GF3; it was a good film that could have been great. But, I feel that it would have taken more than the presence of Robert Duvall to elevate it to "great".

Signor V.


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Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30048
03/10/06 03:43 AM
03/10/06 03:43 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
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Turnbull Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by Signor Vitelli:
A pity, IMHO, because I feel the film truly suffered for not having the character of Tom Hagen in it. George Hamilton was a poor substitute.
That could be the understatement of the year. smile

I do not despise GF3; it was a good film that could have been great. But, I feel that it would have taken more than the presence of Robert Duvall to elevate it to "great".

Signor V.

Absolutely right, Signor V!


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E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30049
03/10/06 02:52 PM
03/10/06 02:52 PM
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svsg Offline
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George hamilton was seen in only a few scenes of GF3. And he hardly had any dialogues to speak. What do you expect out of him? Do you think, given the same screen time and the exact same part, Duvall would have done wonders? To me George Hamillton's role was so insignificant in the movie that you cannot blame him for bad acting. It was not his fault, coppola was obviously on his downfall and he made quite a few mistakes.

Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30050
03/10/06 02:57 PM
03/10/06 02:57 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
The casting of George Hamilton was an act of hubris on FFC's part. It was like casting that 50's B list actor as Merle.


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Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30051
03/10/06 03:04 PM
03/10/06 03:04 PM
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Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi Offline
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The Ravenite Social Club
George Hamilton in The GF III. rolleyes frown

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Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30052
03/10/06 03:28 PM
03/10/06 03:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,066
OH, VA, KY
Mignon Offline
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Mignon  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,066
OH, VA, KY
I don't hate the movie I just don't understand some it. Like the Immobile deal, Why they had to use incest. I like the Vincent charactor, even though I don't feel Sonny is his father. Mary and Kay just gets on my nerves. The silent scream is the best. I don't like the ending. To many unanswered questions imho.


Dylan Matthew Moran born 10/30/12


Re: For those of you who hate Part III... #30053
03/12/06 02:11 PM
03/12/06 02:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 533
Luciano Fanucci Offline
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Ive seen it 8 times all the way through, I hate it. I think Vincents such a ladies man.


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