Just got done watching the new Batman movie. In one scene, the characters were talking about the different between revenge, and justice. It made me reflect upon the Godfather: "For justice, we must go to Don Corleone".

Powerfilled words, but what exactly is justice and how does it differ from vengeance?

I've looked up the two terms, here's what I've got:

justice -- The state, action, or principle of treating all persons equally in accordance with the law

vengeance -- Infliction of punishment in return for a wrong committed; retribution
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You can see how the dictionary has the words distinguished in a positive-negative light. What Amerigo Bonasera wanted from the Godfather was an action of equality between what happened to his daughter, and what is to become of the schnooks who raped her. He claims it was justice, but even the Don questioned this 'justice'. From what the viewer or reader sees, Amerigo Bonasera apparently wanted revenge.

In this new Batman movie, it was quoted that justice and vengeance were two way different things, which goes against the whole GF message.

What do you think?

Cool topic Tony Love

I don't think that goes against the GF message - I think that's exactly what they're saying in that first scene.
Bonasera wants Vito to kill the boys who abused his daughter. But Vito is able to make the distinction between justice and vengeance - "That is not justice, your daughter is still alive". Instead of taking revenge by killing them, he deals out 'justice' by doing to them what they did to the girl - beating them to a pulp.

I think this is an important distinction because it makes Vito morally accessible to us. Yes he is a murdering mafioso, but look audience, he has some principles! Which of course is where he differs from Mike. Mike has no hesitation in blowing away his enemies, massacring those who offend him. And that's not justice, it's vengeance.
Just another example of how Mike was morally a lesser man than his father.

justice -- The state, action, or principle of treating all persons equally in accordance with the law

vengeance -- Infliction of punishment in return for a wrong committed; retribution


The two are not incompatible. In criminology, there is a school of thought that is very popular especially in Anglo-American jurisprudence known as retributive justice, or "desert theory". It expounds a form of justice that punishes according to one's deserts ... the penalty is commensurate with the crime. In its most "extreme" form, this may mean "an eye for an eye" ... or a jaw for a jaw in Bonasera's case.

So true

Interesting topic. I think what is going on in the GF scene with Bonasera is that he has spent his life trying to live within the rules of the "American State" and that the justice system did not deliver justice. In desperation he goes to the Godfather, who understands that Bonasera never wanted to be in the serice of someone like him. Then he admonishes Bonasera for not sticking to the Sicilian traditions, and makes him call him Godfather, kiss his hand, etc. So in a real sense the Don is acting as if he were "the State." Thus when Bonasera asks that the two thugs be murdered, he says that is not "justice" because his daughter is alive.

Very insightful point, dt! I think it also gets to Tony's original question:
As a practical matter, "justice" is administered by the state. "Vengeance" isn't supposed to be the prime motivation for "justice." The state is supposed to be concerned with "balancing the needs" of society (get the criminal off the street, criminal's potential for "rehabilitation"),and punishment for the offender. Punishment is most often less than the harm inflicted on the victim, particularly if the offender had a clean or light record; if he had "mitigating circumstances" (like an "unfavorable childhood"), or if he had political influence and paid off the authorities (which is what apparently happened in the case of the two punks). The victim's rights come last in the state version of "justice."
Courts in all parts of the world (especially in poor countries like Sicily) are notoriously corrupt, and skewed toward the rich and powerful. Bonasera and Vito, as natives of Sicily, knew that. In Sicily, average people would never expect "justice" from the state, so they seek satisfaction through direct action against the offender. That's how "vengeance" becomes "justice." That's also how the Mafia became powerful: offering average people a shot at justice/vengeance that they couldn't get from the state. Bonasera thought it'd be different in America. Vito reminded him that it wasn't. When the state failed Bonasera, Vito became the state (as dt said). That's one of the reasons it's such a brilliant scene.

Don T, Turnbull, you both have made two extremely insightful posts. Excellent stuff!

Bonasera, as both of you have pointed out, wanted justice, through the authorities. When justice was not served to his satisfaction, then the justice that he was seeking turned to wanting vengeance. Basically an INjustice can breed Vengeance.


Don Cardi

Turnbull and DC, compliments from you two are always a high honor.

The writing of that opening scene in the movie is pure genius. The opening line is "I believe in America. America has made my fortune and I raised my daughter in the American fashion." When the rape happened "I went to the police like a good American." And he also tells the Don he was afraid to be in his (Corleone's) debt.

Like any good listener and counselor, the Don then tells Bonasera the same thing Bonasera told him, only he uses the past tense, not the present tense..."You found paradise in America, had a good trade, made a good living. The police protected you and there were courts of law and you didnt need a friend like me. But now you come to me and you say 'Don Corleone, give me justice'..."

By doing this Vito is drawing a line between Bonasera's shattered "American Dream," and the harsh reality of the brutality Bonasera wishes to inflict.

Vito does a similar trick when he cuts off the baker whose request is obvious when he says "and you want this boy Enzo to stay and marry your daughter." The baker is astonished and says "Godfather you know everything!"

With all these compliments flying back and forth, this Board is alot like the the U.S. Senate.

In any case, most of the previous posts on this subject appear to be correct. I would just add that civil law recognizes "punitive damages" intended to financially punish one of the parties to a civil action. Justice and revenge are both concepts. However, justice is usually administered by the state while revenge tends to be personal.

Ha! You should see General Discussion!

Some very good points here have been made. When I saw the title of the thread, I thought of the book Justice Not Vengeance, by Simon Weisenthal, a Holocaust survivor and famous Nazi hunter. He says that the survivors must not be so caught up in their desire for revenge that it consumes their lives with its bitterness, otherwise their enemies will have won. He says that the survivors must seek justice at every possible level, and trust that the war criminals will end up being judged properly.

I think the fine points here that were made, especially about the ones about the mafia's rise to power in Sicily by extracting vengeance when justice was not to be found, were rather interesting. The difference between the two (justice and vengeance, that is) is a fine line, yet it's one that even a quiet man like Bonasera can be tempted to cross. I believe that is why cooler heads like Vito's must prevail.

What I did find odd in the scene is that a man as straight-laced as Vito, who must've known Bonasera's daughter since she was a child (isn't Mama her godmother), is not moved to anger by the whole situation, the almost-rape and savage beating of a young, innocent girl. He is calm throughout the scene, and considers it more important to teach Bonasera a lesson.

The Don never gets angry, he gets even. He never lets anyone outside the family know what he is thinking!

Interestingly, following the Nazi surrender, Winston Churchill's first plan for dealing with war criminals was to have intelligence agents hunt them down and shoot them in the streets. That was vengeance. He was persuaded to support the Nuremberg Tribunal, which was justice.

Interestingly, following the Nazi surrender, Winston Churchill's first plan for dealing with war criminals was to have intelligence agents hunt them down and shoot them in the streets. That was vengeance. He was persuaded to support the Nuremberg Tribunal, which was justice. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Winston was a real "shoot from the lip" kind of guy. Look at all the things he said about Gandhi. My favorite Churchhill story is the one where some lady told him "If you were my husband I would put poison in your tea," to which he replied "Madam, If I were your husband, I would drink it." I believe Churchill drank a bottle of cognac before noon on a daily basis. It also appears that he and FDR would hit the martinis pretty hard when they were together.

But this is getting a bit off topic.

Justice can never be achieved and vengeance never heals one's pain. In my last philosophy they both belong to the department of uselessness. That's the only relationship I can find between the two.

Mike said we'd get there. Senator Corleone!

I had a very cool political science professor whose first action on the first day of class was to show this scene we are talking about in the Godfather between Bonasera and Vito. The point of his doing so was to help us understand that in many other cultures, unlike our Anglo American one, it is quite common and often neccesary to find assistance from power outside of the "legitimate" government officials. It is interesting that some people believe the government is the only entity that has a monopoly on justice in the world, when so often they fail utterly in delivering it.

Great topic! My thoughts - I'm sure Vito was furious about what happened to the girl. I'm also sure Mama spoke to him about it privately. Sure, Vito was a gangster, but he had his own code of ethics that he refused to deviate from. I think that his code stated that since the girl was not a blood relation, Bonasera had to come to him and ask for his help before he would get involved. Making Bonasera squirm a little before he agreed...just a little payback for Bonasera treating him so disrespectfully.

This whole topic brings to mind a quote from Sherlock Holmes. “I think there are certain crimes which the law cannot touch, and which therefore, to some extent, justify private revenge.”

This is just my Opinion but I dont think Vito was a justice based kind of guy. I think he just made that reference and said that is not justice, becuase Bonasera was saying he wants justice and plus he was kind of playing sort of a game with Bonasera. Im sure if someone else closer and showed more respect to vito, vito im surely would have went along with killing the two boys
Another thing, wat about in the Flashback scenes in GFII, hes kills Don Ciccio and In the deleted scenes he kills two of Ciccio's men. I would say that was based more on Revenge.

And one more point, a common theme of the novel was that its stricly business not personal. But in the novel when Tom says that to Micheal he responds to something along the lines that everything is personel, and thats wat made the Old Don(vito) great, is that he took everything personally.

I don't know why I missed this topic the first time around....

Don Corleone himself answers the question for us.

Justice should be "exact", to the extent that it is possible to administer such a concept, and beneficial to society as a whole, not only the victim.

Bonasera received "justice" from the court. The judge weighed all the facts, and determined that absent a prior criminal record and the good families from which the boys came, that it was in the interests of justice that they receive a suspended sentence.

Vengeance, on the other hand, may be "inexact". It's just a case of "getting even", as in Bonasera's asking Don Corleone to commit an act of murder as "justice" for only the beating if his daughter.

Which is exactly how Don C. explains it to Bonasera in the book:

Don C: "What is your justice?
Bonasera: "An eye for an eye."
Don C: "You asked for more. Your daughter is alive."

The judge went to the same country club as the boys' fathers and played golf with them! "That is not justice"!

I agree with the points made, but I have a saying i'd like to throw in:

Q: What's the difference between "justice" and "vengeance"?
A: Justice makes you sound like a good guy.

In other words, there is no difference. "Justice" is a way of making revenge sound like it's not, because you're punishing someone who IN YOUR EYES (key point there) has done something "wrong", and therefore deserves to be punished. It's the same thing as revenge, but sugar-coated so the person issuing the "justice" looks like the "good" person and the person recieving it looks like the "bad" person. I have to say that the whole concept disgusts me completely.

i agree with Wayne, its all how u say it, vengenance and justice, sono stessi cose