I wanted to ask a question about Kay's abortion which might be answered in the novel, I haven't read it so I don't know. What I don't understand about the situation is that Michael was very much about his family, but especially abou his children obviously wanting a male to take over the business. Why then is Kay, pregnant with his baby, allowed to go out to different places without a bodyguard or anything? If there was a bodyguard there they would have known she was going to an abortion clinic or whatever and would have been able to tell I guess Tom at that point.

Books and movies have perpetuated this idea about hordes of bodyguards accompanying Mafiosi, etc. wherever they go. It's just not true. There is no real time evidence of such. Besides the cops, other Mafiosi, and reporters, people don't even know who they are. In fact, most cops, and reporters, and Mafiosi don't know who they are. Assuming that other Mafiosi are following the rules, Kay would have been untouchable. Even if she were attended, she could have easily desguised her abortion as any medical procedure.

In addition, I don't believe that abortion was legal at the time that Kay had hers performed. She would have had to hide the true purpose of her visits to the "doctor" anyway. Who would've known, unless the bodyguard followed her into the ob/gyn's examination room.

Yes, but the other Mafiosi were NOT following the rules! They shot up Michael's home, in his bedroom, where his children play with their toys, where he sleeps with Kay. So obviously the Mafiosi did NOT care if Kay or the children were killed in their attempt to kill Michael! So therefore DMC's question, in the cirlce of what had taken place, is NOT out of the realm! Michael could not know if they would now attempt to kill his wife or children, so a bodyguard would have been assigned to them. As a matter of fact there is a scene where Kay attempts to leave the estate to go shopping and she is stopped by Tom. So DMC's question is a legitimate one. But even if she did have bodyguards, as Sicilian Babe has said as far as they know she would be visiting a doctor, after all she was pregnant. And that doctor in all likelyhood performed an illegal abortion! But the bodyguards wouldn't need to know that.


Don Cardi

Got a question that's quasi-related, but I didn't think it was worthy to start a new thread.

Did Mike really love Kay?

I just never saw a lot of love there for her except for at the beginning of One. I get the idea that he was more looking for someone with whom to start a family with. I haven't read the book, and I know that Michael has a conversation with Vito in which he says that he's "very happy" with his wife and children. Just wondering what you all thought.

Actually, I think this HAS been a separate thread!

I think that Michael never truly loved Kay. In the beginning of their relationship, I think he loved that she was as opposite as possible from an what his family wanted or expected. I think he was rebelling against his anticipated role in the family, and Kay was part of that rebellion. Later on, after Appollonia's death, he was determined to bring the Corleone Family into a new world. He wanted to be legitimate. Kay, a Northeast WASP, was as legitimate as you can get. I'm sure he coldly acquired her as he acquired any potential asset for his business.

Sorry to be repetitive.

No, in the novel Kay does not have an abortion. It was an idea of Talia Shire, which FFC inserted in the part 2 plot.
Abortion clinic? I have no idea what kind of clinics were in America in those days, but I speculate that an "abortion clinic" would not have been acceptable.

Novel only covers the flashbacks of the second part.

If a woman wants to get an abortion she'll get an abortion no matter how many bodyguards are around her. There is no love stronger than what a mother feels for her child. But when a woman comes to the point to get an abortion, no one is entitled to be the judge of the matter. Kay made a mistake to marry Mike, she knew very well that Mike had committed murder. The rest of what she did was the consequence of her first mistake.

One thing I like about the Board is the tangent subjects that are so much a part of our posts. One just came up addressing abortion. Noone is entitled to be the judge of a women's decision to kill her flesh and blood. Well, Mike killed his flesh and blood - his brother. Nothing wrong with that, right?

Well, if you're going to weigh right vs. wrong in general, then of course it was as wrong of Mike to kill Fredo as it was to kill Sollozzo, McClusky, Carlo, Tessio, the Heads of the 5 Families, Moe Green, Hyman Roth and Fabrizio (to name a few). But no more or less wrong then any murder or betrayal any of those people had taken part in against the Corleone Family.

However.

If you're talking strictly about business and the one he was in, then the fact that Fredo was flesh and blood played no role (except for the delaying of the murder until after their mother's death) and was the RIGHT business decision....since it was the direct result of Fredo making the WRONG decision, which was to betray HIS own flesh and blood for his own gain and benefit, thereby almost causing his own brother's death.



Apple

I don't remember if I ever judged Mike about that one either. Even I've said many times that if my father's life or my family's lives were at the stake, I might have done the exact same thing. Everyone gets the empathy when the story is being told from his/her point of view and neither you nor I should judge them. I never said abortion is right or wrong. I merely said when there have been mothers that chose to die with their child while fathers simply ran away, when that's the mother who is totally in charge of a child during nine months pregnancy and us humans don't lay eggs to sleep on it each for a while and then you see a mother decides to kill her dearest child, no one is entitled to judge her, except God which you are once again more than welcome not to believe in him.

Yes, I don't blame Kay for getting an abortion in that situation, however I blame her for getting married to someone whom already knew had turned into a monster.

I disagree that Kay 'already knew' Michael was a monster when she married him. I think that although she certainly knew the type of business he was involved in and that his father and associates were known killers...she must've truly wanted to believe at some level that he would legitimize the business and not conduct it in the same fashion. She made herself believe it, as she made herself believe he wasn't responsible for Carlo's murder.

The realization of what he was took place gradually over several years ... and culminated in that exchange in the hotel room.

Kay was certainly naieve when she married Michael, chose to be naieve...and because of that did deserve everything that came her way. But I don't think she consciously knew she was becoming the wife of a monster...or that he even WAS a monster when they got married.

Apple

I agree that we don't see such a thing in the movie, but in the novel, Kay hears what Michael has done from Mama Corleone when Mike has ran away. Of course you can always argue that movie is different than the book, but that's the feeling I've had when I found out about this in the novel.

The movie is different from the book. Which is why the two cannot always be intertwined.

Just as Fredo is a completely different character in the film(s) than in the novel (from what I hear) ... the Michael/Kay relationship can also be considered different. And in the film, I really get the impression Kay marries Michael with the faith that he's not a monster nor on his way to becoming one. That is why in GFII the character is legitimately able to confront Michael (while dancing) about waiting 7 years for the Family to become 'legitimate'.

And of course the film does not show us that visit between Kay and Mama.

But there's a nice forum to discuss the novel if anyone so chooses.

Apple

Kay went to visit Mama Corleone when she tried to hand Tom her letter for Michael. There was no way that she wouldn't know Mike has killed Sollozzo and McClusky, otherwise why Tom should be worried about accepting the letter as a give away of Mike's whereabouts? Any why Mike should run away right after a police officer is getting killed?

IMO She thought Mike would change. Big mistake!

In the novel, yes I'm sure that's when the visit takes place. In the film, Kay simply asks to call for another cab and that's why Tom lets her in. For a viewer who has not read the novel, there is no reason to assume that Kay then sits down and has a nice chat with Michael's mama.

Of course what you're saying makes sense logically, that how could Kay NOT realize Michael killed a police officer and that's why he's nowhere to be found and she hasn't heard from him. Except you're thinking that from the point of the audience, who already knows these things.

Not being part of that world and being completely clueless as to how it all works (except for the intro she got at Connie's wedding)...Kay might just be so much in love with the boy she met in college that she's willing to just not let herself think about what he might have done to warrant his disappearing from the face of the earth. What's in the letter she tries to give Tom? Not having read the book someone might think it's an 'I love you but am not going to wait around forever it's clear your family has taken priority in your life so I'm going to go on with mine wish you the best Always, Kay' type of thing.

When you haven't read the novel (as many have not) ... it's kind of fun to consider these alternate scenarios because you have no recollection of a book to corner you in.

Which is why there's a very nice forum in which to discuss the novel if one so chooses.

But I do agree with you about one thing, Kay thought he would change THE FAMILY when she finally did marry him. I don't think she yet had any idea as to what he was becoming, what was going on inside him. And it would be several years before she would.

Apple

I already told you, you can assume what you please. Even before I read the novel, I thought Kay be smarted than that and assumed that she knew about what Mike did.

In the novel, I guess she WAS smarter.

That's why there's a very nice forum where those who have read it and wish to discuss it can do so.

Apple

And we can always campaign and encourage people for reading the book here!

I would like to read it someday...have said that here for years.

I like the movies though and right now there's no desire to wade through the Dr. Jules/Johnny & Hollywood crap, Luca throwing babies into fire, Sonny's 'size' and Lucy's 'room'...and all the other wonderful stuff I've read about here on the BB.

But when I do, I'll be sure and visit that other forum often!!



Apple

That brings up another thing that I was thinking. IF (I'm not sure) there weren't any kind of abortion clinics or anything at that time, then wouldn't Mike have had "his doctors" ? I can't see someone in his field going to just any doctor. Is that making sense lol
So along those lines I don't see how Kay would have gone to just any obgyn, wouldn't Mike have had "influence" on the doctor in some way, making it a risk for Kay to have the abortion?

Just more thoughts lol

As afsaneh77 pointed out...if Kay really desired an abortion she was going to get one. A woman of her means would have certainly been able to discreetly seek a Dr. who would perform one even if it were not necessarily the one she was seeing for her pregnancy. Also we're talking about a time when men did not get very involved in the course of the wife's pregnancy and since this was after all not their first child but their third...we can assume Michael, especially as consumed as he was with Business would trust that Kay would be capable of handling the 'medical' aspect of the pregnancy.

God...the things some of you people pick apart can realy make a head spin !!

It's a wonder you can even enjoy the movie.

Apple

It is surprising that michael did not have "his doctors". In the novel, there are extensive references to these types of special doctors (especially in hollywood). Dr.Jules was an expert in handling all high profile cases. He treated Johnny fontane and Lucy. Fredo was supposedly visiting him for some ailment. Dr Jules even proposed to cure michael's broken jaw. If Puzo had more control over the script, I am sure he would have inserted Dr.Jules in the plot by any means

OK, did anyone ever think that Tom was telling the truth and that Kay was lying? If, after all, Michael had such a tight control on her life, including her doctors, perhaps she did have a miscarriage. Perhaps she knew that the best way to hurt him, to completely alienate him, was to tell him that she had had their son killed. Does anyone think that's totally out of left field??

No.

Tom WAS telling the truth, because at the time he told Michael he believed it was a miscarriage.

Kay WAS lying by allowing everyone to think it was a miscarriage...until that moment in the hotel when she admitted that it was an abortion. Judging from the character, Kay did not appear to be the type of woman who would say, "It was a BOY and I had it KILLED..." if it were not true...just to alienate and hurt her husband.

Remember, during that final bout it was Michael who brought up the subject of the lost baby...not Kay.

Apple

SB, actually I think this sounds like a good revenge. Using a miscarriage as a closure. I've thought about it too. It could have been the case IMO.

I don't think Kay was looking for 'revenge'.

She was looking to get out of her marriage, which at this point she considered 'unholy'.

She was also looking to take her children out of that 'Sicilian Thing' life too...which of course was where she failed miserably.

Apple

And here I was going to start a whole thread on why the tomato garden where Don Corleone died is placed on the wrong side of the property for it to get proper sun, and how the tomatoes should have been farther along on that fateful July date.

Kay was lying about the abortion. We learn this in TGR.