We have been talking in another thread about Vito's slip up in the Sollozo business, but I am wondering if it was Sollozzo and the other families who ultimately "slipped up."

As I understand it, Sollozzo needed $1 million start up money and he needed Vito's police and political connections.

As Tom and Sonny both recognized drugs was the next big thing, and that if the Corleones didn't get into it the other families would, and in time marginalize the Corleones.

After Vito told Sollozzo "No," why couldnt Sollozzo go to Tattaglia, Barzini and the other families and get the money from them? Certainly Vito did not have a monopoly on police protection...Sollozzo already had a Police captain in his pocket, and as the drug trade grew, he could have bought off more cops, and all the while Barzini and Tattaglia could continue to chisle on Tessio and Clemenza's territories, as they later complained they were doing.

This scenariou would have isolated the Corleones, hurt them financially, and in time reduced their political muscle because where corruption is concerned you always follow the money anyhow.

Furthermore they all had to know that The Don was getting on in years and that Sonny would either come around to their point of view, or become a target himself leaving Fredo the heir apparent.

So the question is, did Sollozzo and all the other families really need the Corleones' cupport to make their drug operation work?
So all in all, if the Don was already "slippin" why did they need the Corleones at all?

wow. great question. Maybe it was out of respect to the Corleone family and the fact that Sollozzo thought that he would benefit by having the Corleone family invested in his drug trade. These families want to make money with one another more than create bloodshed. Sollozzo maybe wanted to offer equal chance to the the families of New York to go in on the business.

The protection still had to be a big issue. Even Barzini and Tattaglia mention it at the big meeting. Barzini makes a point of the Corleone protection in the East when summing up the "deal" for making the peace and going into narcotics. We can surmise that the Corleone's had more protection and at higher levels than any of the other families.

Exactly MC.

It wasn't the $$$ that The Turk really needed. He even guarantees Vito's investment. He easily could have come up with the money from the other families had money been the only issue.

It was the protection. it was Vito's connections from the local policeman all through the judge right up to the congressman and the senator.

They needed those kinds of connections to get the drug commerce flowing as smoothly as possible. Paying off the right people at all different levels not to interfere with what was going on.

Get the local policemen to turn a blind eye to the local distributing operations that would be set up.

Get a senator or a congressman to vote against a bill that may have called for harsh punishment to those caught distributing and dealing drugs.

Make sure that the judges in Vito's pocket would give a light or even a suspended sentence to someone working for them who may have been arrested by some overzealous rookie cop.



THE TURK :"I need a man who has powerful friends. I need, Don Corleone, those politicians that you carry in your pocket, like so many
nickels and dimes."

VITO :"It's true, I have a lot of friends in politics, but they wouldn't be friendly very long if they knew my business was drugs..."

TATTAGLIA: "Yes, Don Barzini -- he's too modest. He had all the judges and politicians in his pocket. He refused to share them..."

BARZINI : "If Don Corleone had all the judges, and the politicians in New York, then he must share them, or let us others use them."




It was for all the powerful law and political connections that Vito had made during his rise which was needed by Barzini, Tattaglia and The Turk, not the money. The asking for Money was just thrown in there as sort of a distraction, a decoy, a coverup to what they were really looking for from Don Vito: his political connections.

Evidently Vito did have the number and quality of police and political contacts that were needed for a successful drug operation, otherwise, as dt said, Sollozzo could have gone elsewhere. At the meeting, Barzini flat-out says, "If Don Corlone had all the politicians in New York, then he must share them...he must let us draw the water from the well." He might have been exaggerating, but clearly he believed that the plan couldn't go ahead without Vito.
Sure, he could have gotten $1M from other families. But, another reason why Sol wanted Vito on his side was to assure that Vito wouldn't actively oppose him. He probably heard that Vito was "notoriously straight-laced." "Morals" or no, if Vito saw Sol's business as a threat to his own (and he said so at the meeting), he'd have every incentive to stop Sol even if Sol had the support of the other families. Sol needed Vito on his side.

I agree that Vito had more political infuence than the others, but as I said earlier Sollozzo had a police captain in his pocket, and surely the other families had SOME political connections. If they could turn a big profit with drugs they could have started buying off these same people...I mean if some crooked judge was on the take from Vito, he would also go on the take for someone offering him more money.

Keep in mind that Tom saw this as a long term investment that would ultimately weaken the Corleone family (which it did). If Sollozzo, Tattaglia, and Barzini saw it the same way, then they would have been able to go into it knowing they would take some early hits, but come out well in the long run. Moreover, Sollozzo was going to be the front man for all this, and Barzini and Tattaglia could have used buffas and/or fingered him if the heat got too close. Sollozo was in effect expendable. If he got busted The other families could easily get another front man.

I don't agree that all the "nickels and dimes" in Vito's pockets would have jumped to the highest bidder.

It always seemed to me that Vito's political connections were based as much on relationships as money. Otherwise, why would Tom and Vito worry about losing those connections after Vito's death?

As Vito explains at the commission meeting, there was a distinction between providing illegal services that were generally supported by the people (e.g. gambling) and those that were truly wrong (e.g. drugs).

The politicians and judges in Vito's pockets probably realized that Vito respected that distinction, so they wouldn't get involved in anything too bad through their association with him.

Getting involved with the other Dons was a far riskier matter for them. Some would take the risk for the right price, but I think all the Dons realized that many would not.

Because Puzo needed something to lead up to the attempt on Vito's life.....

No, you can't do that one because that assumes "The Godfather" is a work of fiction, which of course it is not.

I just had nothing intelligent to post...sorry DT...

No, Tom said drugs were "the coming thing," and if the family didn't get into drugs, "we risk everything we have...not now, but ten years from now." Vito was the one who saw drugs as the long-term risk.

I stand corrected, sort of. Tom feared the money drugs would generate would strengthen the other families and weaken the Corleones. Vito feared the authorities would crack down on all of them if drugs was their business and not women and gambling which are forbidden by the pezzanovante or the church.

I hate to engage in another round of Tom bashing, but is it possible that a Genco with his Sicilian cunning could have thought through this and made the deal with the same strings attached that ultimately ended the war? That is, do not sell it to children, do not sell it near schools, and keep it in the dark areas... the coloreds...it might not have taken a lot of convincing the powers that be at the time that "they're animals anyway so let them lose their souls."

I think the drugs business was a force greater than Vito, Tom and Genco (although, in a different thread, I argue that Vito could have delayed the drugs business over the short term by killing Sollozzo). Tom gave his Don logical advice about the money potential of the drugs business, and the negative implications for the Corleones if they didn't get into it. He was right. Vito saw the threat to the entire Mafia posed by the drugs business. He was right. But it was his decision, not Tom's; and it would have been his decision, not Genco's, if Genco had still been consigliere when Sollozzo came a' callin'.

As for terms of an agreement: The Corleones obviously would have been far better off if Vito had agreed to Sollozzo's terms because Vito ultimately agreed to share his police and political contacts anyway. If he'd said yes right away, he would have gotten a share of the drugs profits instead of some fee for renting the cops and pols. He would have been dealing from a position of strength, not weakness. And, most important, there'd have been no war, with all its disastrous results.

But it raises a much larger question: how does an ultra-powerful man like Vito reconcile two irreconcilable forces--the inevitability of drugs due to the money potential that's irresistable and has greater potential power than even he wields; vs. the inevitability that drugs will destroy his family and all the others in the Mafia? That's worthy of a Greek tragedy.

Indeed...so you are saying he sees that the demise of his enterprise is inevitable whatever he does. This idea of tragedy is borne out in the script....when Michael proposes to Kay he tells her his father's way of doing things is over "even he knows that " and again when the Don wistfully tells Michael he wanted something different for him interesting because "something different" was what Michael wanted in his rebellious phase (nice irony), they agree "there wasn't enough time, and Michael says "We'll get there." In those moments I think Michael really believed he would go legit...but because of his hubris he never did....more Greek tragedy.

Vito is wise enough to realize that nothing lasts forever. Don't forget, at the time of the Sollozzo meeting, Michael is not in the picture. Vito can't count on him as a successor. Vito has to seriously consider how his involvement in drugs might erode his political and legal support. As the novel points out, that support has been the cornerstone of Vito's power since day one. The Tattagias were involved in the "thin" drug traffic at the time. Vito's involvement would have greatly expanded it and made it very high profile. He probably agreed with Tom that drugs were the coming thing. But he had to deal with things as they were now and within a shorter window of time. He had to balance the consequences of getting involved i nthe drug traffic against teh loss of his political support which might very well have undemined his other endeavors.

As far as there not being enough time, I think that Vito looked upon Michael's involvement in politics as a way to enhance his nefarious undertakings. I don't think legitimacy was in either Michael's or Vito's mind.

I agree with you about Michael, but I am not so sure about Vito.
As a young man he certainly started out "legitimate," working in a grocery store, and he did not turn to crime until he saw the injustices perpetrated on him by Fanucci. In his final scene with Michael he says he makes no apologies for his life because above all else he did not want to be a puppet, having his strings pulled by any body. In that same context he says he knew Santino would have to go through all this, but that he never wanted it for Michael. He had to know Sonny was not going to be a very good Don, and perhaps he could foresee collapse of the illegitimate Corleone family. Maybe that explains why he was jealously preserving his political ties, hoping that Michael would rise up in the legitimate world and eventually make the family go legitimate.

The "not being enough time" line could be construed as meaning that there was not enough time to set Michael on a legitimate path or that there just wasn't enough time to get Michael ready for the position in the family that he was about to take. Personally I've always thought that it meant a little bit of both.

However, overall, they both desired a world of legitimacy. Vito knew that it was not possible for himself to be legitimate. But you can rest assured that Vito wanted it for Michael, and that Michael wanted it for Michael. Vito even tells Michael

But I never -- I never wanted this for you...... but I thought that -- that when it was your time -- that -- that you would be the one to hold the strings. Senator -Corleone. Governor - Corleone, or something...


It can't be made any clearer than that.


As for Michael, the whole premise of GFII and GFIII is his desire for legitimacy! How many times have we discussed how Michael tried to make things different in GFII with the move to Nevada, surrounding himself with the upper echelon of his new world. How he began to make political contacts out west. While they may have been a facade in a sense, they were also Michael's way to fool others and even himself, into believing that he was, or at least on the path, to becoming legitimate.

And what takes place in the evolution of Michael's character in GFIII is just further proof of his desire for legitimacy!

In GF II he kills his own brother.

In GF III he does turn the reins over to Vincent, and I guess you could argue he was trying to become legitimate and realizes that the "legitimate" world is as corrpupt as the mob..."The higher up I go the crookeder it gets..." Even so, his first reaction to Don Tomassino's death is to tell Calo that he may be asking him for a favor.

Do you guys think Barzini knew that Vito would say no and therefore Sollozo would try to whack him, which would make the Barzini's the number one family?

Ma, no!

Michael's and Vito's defintion of legitimacy is quite different from yours and mine. As Vito told Michael, "I hoped that one day you would be the one to hold the strings [of power]... and I refused to be a puppet dancing on the strings held by those pezzonovante. I don't apologize." That's not what I call seeking legitimacy. The move to Nevada did surround Michael with a different cast of characters, but they were just a different set of corrupt characters. He still engaged in murder and mayhem on his way to "legitimacy." As has been discussed so many times on this Board, either one could have achieved legitimacy at any time by just walking away from it all.

I'm hope I will be corrected if I am in error, but off the top of my head, I think I remember either reading (book) or hearing (movie) something to the effect that drug convictions carried much longer prison sentences than gambling or prostitution. Therefore, the Corleone's influence with judges could result in light sentences if a drug runner was convicted. A lighter sentence meant that these drug runners were less likely to cop a plea bargin for nformation that would lead to higher up members of the families being betrayed, arrested, and convicted to hard time. (or a reasonable facsimile thereof)

That was the entire reason why Sollozzo wanted Vito's backing.

So Sollozzo WAS "that clevah"

...except when he was eating veal...

I believe in that scene he was the hunted one

Ma Yes!

Holding the string of power is not illegal. Many legitmate billionaires still work long hours every day. There is nothing illegal about that.

As Henry Kissinger once said, power is the greatest aphrodisiac, and Michael Corleone was not about to walk away from that.

Welcome, Allen, hope to see many more thoughtful posts from you!
I'm with Olivant here. No, "holding the strings" of power isn't illegal per se. But, what kind of power did Vito and Michael have? How did they acquire and use it?
The key to Michael's attitude is found in the scene where he woos Kay in New Hampshire. He likens his father to Senators and Governors, and Kay replies that they "don't have people killed." "Who's being naive now, Kay?" he says. "My father is no different than other powerful men who have responsibilities to others..."

What he's saying is, "If Senators and Governors can be hypocrites; if they can lie, cheat, steal and otherwise enrich themselves or acquire power illegally or extra-legally; if they can threaten or kill political opponents, or order out the National Guard or the Army to suppress strikes or squash revolutions that threaten business interests that pay them off--and still be 'respected' and considered 'legitimate'--then why can't I run the gambling and union rackets and be considered 'legitimate'?"

He spent his whole life rationizing his criminal activities by striving for "legitimacy" on terms that he and only he defined. His coda, in III after the Atlantic City shooting, was: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in." Out? He'd just been presiding over a Commission meeting when the shooting occurred.

TB I agree with you on this one, yet despite all the threads in which we have volified Michael, I think we have overlooked a rather weird form of idealism he maintained throughout his life.
This is revealed toward the end of GFIII when he tells Connie "The higher up I go the crookeder it gets." This tells me that despite his rationalization to Kay so many years earlier, and despite all his flaws, some part of him really did believe there was some kind of pot of gold under the rainbow of legitimacy. Of course his "default" position was always to resort to murder, but after Don Tomassino's death even Michael "couldn't do it anymore," and he handed the reins of the Corleone criminal enterprise over to Vincent. By that point he really was finished. I do not think, for example, he helped Vincent with the killings of Luchese etr al. the way Vito helped Michael plan the killings of the heads of the other New York families.