There is a woman on Oprah today who just had my blood boiling. The show is about people who are drowning in debt. This couple has 6 children, she doesn't work, and her husband makes $100,000 per year.

They own three cars, they are $135,000 in credit card debt and owe almost $700,000 on their house. They have no health insurance and no dental insurance. Their children have no clothes, because the mother buys them, and then sells them in a garage sale. They don't bring their kids to the dentist or doctor. One of their daughters has a tumor on her optic nerve, and she's supposed to get an MRI once a year. It's been almost three years since she had one because they "don't have the money", yet they give their children parties that cost thousands of dollars, spend $150 in the candy store, and she spends thousands every year on hair extensions, manicures and pedicures.

This has been passed off by Suze Orman as prevalent in America. How could this complete and total self-absorption be happening? I wanted to smack this woman with her crocodile tears!! Can't take care of her own kids, but she can rent her 13 year old a limo for her birthday party!!

I know this sounds like a rant, but there is a question in here! Are Americans that vested in accruing material things?? I can't imagine using cash advances from credit cards to pay other bills, ducking the phone calls from creditors that come in 6 or 8 times a day! However, this was passed off as "typical". Are we that impatient to accumulate cars and homes and clothes??

I'm also curious to ask our friends here from other countries if this is common where they live? Is this simply an American problem, or is it worldwide???

Sounds like a rant to me.

I saw part of the show.... that couple was disgusting!! So now the woman is gonna work at Starbuck's to get medical insurance... whoopee-dooo.

To answer one of your questions - I don't think all Americans are like this. There is, however, a large number of them that sadly fit this category.

I doubt the same materialism exists. Don't ask me how or why I know this because it's just a gut feeling. You've been to Italy many times, right SB? I'm not saying it doesn't exist there, it just doesn't seem as prevalent. I go to my family property in Cosenza every two years. I spent 18 months there from early 1988 to mid 1989, and I just didn't see it. Maybe in Milan or Rome, the bigger cities, not where my family came from.

As far as that woman, she should lose custody of her children. I joke around about women a lot, and I know I shouldn't, because it's not right, and I'm hardly ever serious, but I'm as serious as cancer when I say this: That woman needs a beating.

I agree 100%, SC. It's one thing if you can afford it, but to live over your head, especially when you have children, isn't just foolish, it's dangerous.

Generally speaking, yes they are; it's the basis of the "American Dream," and quiet frankly, it's bullshit. Well, maybe I'm being cynical, but the economy that has been distinguished as an American economy pretty much relies of consumerism, and that's just fucked up, methinks. I could go on an elaborate Marxist rant, comparing and contrasting capitalism, communism, and socialism... but I won't. I'll just say that I'll continue to insist that America tweaks its way of operating businesses.

All I know for sure is that when I'm 75, I want to be the crazy bastard who lives in a hand-whittled canoe on a small lake, wears a toga, and weighs about 90 pounds.

A few months ago, I saw a Dateline-type report about families who are in debt much like the one described by SB. They blame everybody - the credit card companies mostly, but also the stores, their jobs... Really, much like anything that's taken in excess, spending can be an addiction. Feel badly that you're in debt... go shopping. Feel badly that you don't have money to pay your utilities, go on a vacation.

What they really need is counseling.

In any case, I'm reminded of the following Saturday Night Live skit from last year:

SNL: Don't Buy Stuff You Cannot Afford

It's beyond my comprehension. How do you deny your children healthcare, yet spend $2,000 to bring fake snow in for one of their birthday parties?? On the outside, it looks as if these children have it all, but I think Child Services should take them away, because I consider them abused.

As for the debt, and blaming others, I understand your point, DS. However, what freaking bank allowed these people to borrow $658,000 on their home when they only make $100,000 per year??? What financial formula did they use?? And the best? They have a negatively amortizing mortgage, so they actually get DEEPER in debt each year instead of building equity!!

The husband sat there looking all dumb, like he had no idea that the spending was this out of control. Sorry, there's no way he could be totally unaware. If you spend thousands of dollars on parties each year, if you have a huge house with expensive furnishings (she had more granite in her kitchen than the Vatican, and she admitted that she had between $5-7,000 "invested in silk plants"), the clothes, the hair, the cars. What planet was he on??? Did she mortgage the house herself?? She simply can't, legally. So, he was just as criminal as she was.

What they should do instead of showcasing this trashy woman is show the working poor, and how they live from paycheck to paycheck, just trying to buy their kids new shoes or put food on the table. That's the how the REAL world lives, for the people who live around me who make $40,000 or $50,000 a year, have three kids, and a two bedroom apartment goes for $2,000 a month. Why not show what REAL financial struggles are???

OK, I'm almost done. Sorry.

PB, you're right. I don't see the mania in Italy. My family doesn't even understand the concept of a mortgage (of course, my three cousins were given their homes as wedding gifts - must be nice) and they pay in cash for everything. They looked in my wallet in amazement when they saw my credit cards.

First off, as far as I am concerned, these people have abused their children. Not taking them to a doctor, a dentist, or having their daughter's eye taken care of is child abuse as far as I am concerned.

You bring children into this world, they do not ask to be brought in. Therefore it is your moral and legal responsibility to take care of those children, clothe them, feed them, provide shelter for them, love them and see to it that they get an education and medical attention, especially if it is specifically needed.

Their admitting these things on national TV, as far as I am concerned, was a confession of child abuse. They should be investigated at the very least.

And I don't believe that this kind of situation is rampant in our country. Does it exist? Well you saw it right here. Is it just an American problem? Absolutely not.


I don't deny that there is a problem in this country as far as too much debt due to a ridiculous amount of extended credit and that because of it many Americans are vested in accruing material things, but I don't believe that the kind of accrual of materialism and selfishness that has been displayed in this situation is the "basis" for the American Dream. That's just absurd.

I look around at friends and neighbors and I can't figure out how they can spend the money that they do. We have one friend who is a stay-at-home mom. Her husband makes a decent salary, but it's nothing major. And she spends plenty on hair and nails. She buys her daughter clothes at Abercrombie and gives her designer makeup and Coach bags for her birthday. Her son has every video game system, they take a fairly expensive vacation every summer, and they eat out a few times a week. How do they do it?? I would bet anything that it's all on the card (or cards).

Why do people feel the need to do all this? To HAVE all this?

Geico.

I really think it boils down to insecurity, when you feel the need to "keep up with the Joneses," or have to out do everyone that you know. Like I say, if you afford it, by all means, God bless you, spend it in good health, but if you're just trying to impress your neighbors and friends, you have a serious mental deficiency.

Just like Jed Clampett!!

Geico

I don't know that there are a lot of people exactly like this family, but I am sure they are out there. I do know so many people that live way way beyond their means. God, so many home here are up for foreclosure because people either don't care that they get in debt and/or are so naive that they can't see beyond their noses that with certain loans, each year your payment can go up considerably.

It seems par to have your credit cards maxed out, live in a house that you can't quite afford, and of course your car must be a luxury or expensive vehicle of some kind. However, when it comes down to your children and supporting a family, do what everyone else does (or at least did in the old days)- sacrifice. Haven't many of us gone without for the sake of our children and simply to get by?

TIS

I cannot speak out of lot of knowledge, but this is as far as my observation goes, both in my home country India and now in America. I can see some inter-related ideas here:

Living at the edge of one's means and not prioritizing expenditures (health vs beauty care for example) are not America-specific problems. Dumb people exist everywhere.

Living on credit exists, but not to the extent it is in America. You need collaterals for all loans and will be very tough to get such huge sums that you mention here, especially when you are in debt. And money lenders won't mind sending goons to beat up defaulters

Also in general Americans spend their money well and enjoy their life, Indians tend to save like crazy for whatever reason

And finally materialism. As opposed to what? The whole world runs on materialism, no?

I remember around 10 years ago I was working for a large company in the Princeton area and we were sitting around at lunch and credit card debt came up. One guy, newly married, said he didn't have that much - only $14,000. Others said they had over $5,000 and one person had almost $20,000 on their cards. Now no one at that table made more than $45,000 at the time. I was stunned by the amount of debt everyone had. All of them seemed to think of it as just another monthly expense. I have a neighbor that routinely runs up around $20,000 in card debt and then pays it off with home equity loans. They must owe more on their house now than when they bought it 15 years ago. But they have a new built in pool!

We have always used old fashioned ways to save for things. Christmas was paid for with a Christmas club at our bank (they don't call it that anymore!) and we used our tax refund for vacations. I know you are loaning money to the government if you have too much withheld but that way I didn't spend it.

I do layaway instead of using a credit card.

These people who live way over their heads are the cause of the housing bubble and the mortgage crisis imho. I know many people who have refinanced their homes several times over the past years to consolidate their credit card debt, but new cars, and go on vacation. Ang guess what? They go and max out their cards again, and taking advantage of generous appraisals, refinance their homes again? Now many of them are faced with adjustable rate mortgages, and are drowning in debt and cannnot figure out why.

The American Dream is to be able to make whatever you'd like of yourself, granted you put in the work. This requires a free, competitive market with capitalist values. Capitalism relies on consumerism; without it, the economy falls. Without consumers, we have nothing. In order to make a free market work, you have to have customers with a freedom to choose one product over another, one company over a competitor, and so on. If a company fails on the consumer-market, that company doesn't bring in money, goes bankrupt, and shuts down. Without consumers, there is no free market. Without a free market, there is no American Dream. Not the dream we're familiar with.

Cause we are living in a material world...and I am a material girl...or boy.

Loved The Wedding Singer...

As I said : "THIS SITUATION"

It doesn't really matter how drastic the situation is in founding my point though. Obviously this is a worst-case scenario, and it's both general and drastic... But if all of America behaved like this, I don't think the Gap would be complaining.

While there is nothing wrong about wanting a nice home and comforts for your family, you do your family an injustice by living beyond your means. I have to think that the woman and her husband in the story suffer from depression or another mental or psychiatric malady that prevents them from sensibly prioritizing values. A lot of people overspend to mask their problems, and it becomes a fierce habit to break. They live for the moment, and think their problems will disappear.

I have always felt that the more you acquire things, the more you become possessed by your things. Our country has an abundance of beautiful and useful shiny gadgets, toys and accessories that are attractive, but not needed.

I think the insane amount of attention these Hollywood phonies get, plays no small part in this. Ever watch MTV Cribs? It's revolting.

The Debt Syndrome is one thing, but I think people like the Oprah show lady are Obsessive Compulsive evidenced by the excesses on birthdays. I heard recently that mortgage defaults are at an all time high due to those ARMs. Easy money. Match easy money with Obsessive Compulsion and you have socio-economic disaster.

That's a great show to watch whenever you feel like hearing ebonics.

What is amazing to me is that they were able to amass almost $800,000 in debt on a $100,000 salary. How does anyone get that kind of money?? It's insane!

LLC, I agree with your analysis of the American Dream. It's a limitless level of success based upon the amount of WORK you put into it. However, the definition of success differs greatly.

About 15 years ago, my brother asked me and my other brother what sort of annual income we would want to be "comfortable". He defined comfortable as having a nice house, two decent cars, not Mercedes but fairly new and nice, and the ability to take a decent vacation once a year. Take into account that we all live in the NY metro area, which means that we have some of the highest-priced real estate and taxes in the country.

All three of us gave different answers. I said $100,000, my one brother said $80,000 and the one that asked the question said $150,000 (obviously, he takes nicer vacations than we do). I found it interesting that our answers all varied so widely.

Yes, and when you die, people fight over the valuable stuff and just throw out the rest.

Dylan had a great lyric about this:

"Advertising signs that con
You into thinking you're the one
That can do whats never been done
That can win what's never been won
Meantime life outside goes on all around you."

or as Mick Jagger put it:

"A man comes on the radio whose tellin me more and more
About some useless information,
How white my shirts can be
But he can't be a man cause he doesn't smoke
The same cigarettes as me..."

There are a lot of complex issues - cultural, political, historical and economical - at work here, and nobody really seems to grasp any of the concepts. Or, nobody seems patient enough to express the logic required. I'm certainly not patient enough, either, but I think there's a lot more socio-economic history to consider in order to ascertain whether or not this is specifically American.

I will say this, though: Oprah's freakshow, and any shows of the same calibre, are not the sort of source you'd trust as far as fair representations of how the world works goes. It's just another sensationalist way of dumbing down the reality around us.

Well said Mick. Well said.