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Why does Michael make Vincent his protege?
#442776
10/11/07 11:56 AM
10/11/07 11:56 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
OP
Underboss
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OP
Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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When first confronted by Vincent and Joey, Michael seems to want no part of their troubles and is very dismissive of Vincent.
Michael chides Vincent about not accepting an opportunity in the legitimate world and belittles Vincent by referring to him as just "another tough guy."
However, during the conversation, Michael's demeanor changes and he ends up taking Vincent under his wing.
Why? What does Vincent say or do in that scene that impresses Michael so much?
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Why does Michael make Vincent his protege?
[Re: MaryCas]
#442813
10/11/07 01:54 PM
10/11/07 01:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,508
AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,508
AZ
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Very good question, LW.  But, while I can see MC's point about "slippin'", I think it was actually an example of Michael at his most manipulative: At first, it looked like Vincent was the manipulator: barging into the party, buttering up Connie ("How's my favorite aunt?"), getting Connie to bring him to Michael's office with a pointed reminder ("You remember Vincent-- Sonny's boy.") Michael seems to ignore Vincent's warnings about Zasa's bad-mouthing him and peddling dope, etc. He puts Vincent down right in front of Zasa and The Ant ("I offered you a job with me in the legitimate world. You turned me down...that was foolish...Mr. Joe Zasa gave you a job out of the goodness of his heart."). Then he says, "Make your peace with Joe Zasa." Oh-oh: looks like Michael's thrown Vincent to the wolves--he's practically given Zasa a license to whack Vincent. But, I believe Michael already knew that Zasa was a potential threat to him. He tried to put it aside while basking in his new status as a Papal Knight. But Vincent brought him back to reality. (Attest the dialog when he asked Zasa what kind of man would go around shouting "F*** Michael Corleone"). I think Michael was testing Vincent--"Ok, kid, you want to be my muscle? Let's see how far you'll go." Sure enough, Vincent saw that if he "made his peace" with Zasa, he'd be dead. So he bit his ear instead. Now, it looked like he'd forced Michael to choose "blood over water." In reality, Michael,recognizing that he really needed new muscle in addition to more laywers, had trapped Vincent into a point of no return: now he had to stick with Michael. And, why Vincent? In the novel, Michael asks Vito why he needed Luca Brasi--"an animal like that?" Vito replied to the effect that, "In this world, there are some men who go around shouting, 'kill me, kill me...the trick is to make yourself the only person in the world who he desires not to kill him...then he is yours." Puzo writes, "It was one of the most valuable lessons given by the Don before he died, and Michael had used it to make Neri his Luca Brasi." Now, Neri was old, and Michael had made Vincent his new Luca Brasi.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Why does Michael make Vincent his protege?
[Re: Turnbull]
#442842
10/11/07 03:57 PM
10/11/07 03:57 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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Well TB, so many here for so many years have trashed GFIII. Now I'm not saying that it was, in any way, remotely close to being what the first two movies were as far as quality goes. But on it's own it did have it's own qualities about it and there was somewhat of a deepness to it that FFC tried to show us. I think that too many have watched it with these really high expectations and have continually tried to hold it up to the standards fo the first two movie. No can do. Not even close. But on it's own it was a pretty entertaining and decent movie with some familiar traits in characters like Michael. It was the casting of George that ruined it for me! 
Don Cardi  Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Why does Michael make Vincent his protege?
[Re: Turnbull]
#442951
10/11/07 10:59 PM
10/11/07 10:59 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
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Very good question, LW. But, while I can see MC's point about "slippin'", I think it was actually an example of Michael at his most manipulative: At first, it looked like Vincent was the manipulator: barging into the party, buttering up Connie ("How's my favorite aunt?"), getting Connie to bring him to Michael's office with a pointed reminder ("You remember Vincent-- Sonny's boy.") Michael seems to ignore Vincent's warnings about Zasa's bad-mouthing him and peddling dope, etc. He puts Vincent down right in front of Zasa and The Ant ("I offered you a job with me in the legitimate world. You turned me down...that was foolish...Mr. Joe Zasa gave you a job out of the goodness of his heart."). Then he says, "Make your peace with Joe Zasa." Oh-oh: looks like Michael's thrown Vincent to the wolves--he's practically given Zasa a license to whack Vincent. But, I believe Michael already knew that Zasa was a potential threat to him. He tried to put it aside while basking in his new status as a Papal Knight. But Vincent brought him back to reality. (Attest the dialog when he asked Zasa what kind of man would go around shouting "F*** Michael Corleone"). I think Michael was testing Vincent--"Ok, kid, you want to be my muscle? Let's see how far you'll go." Sure enough, Vincent saw that if he "made his peace" with Zasa, he'd be dead. So he bit his ear instead. Now, it looked like he'd forced Michael to choose "blood over water." In reality, Michael,recognizing that he really needed new muscle in addition to more laywers, had trapped Vincent into a point of no return: now he had to stick with Michael. And, why Vincent? In the novel, Michael asks Vito why he needed Luca Brasi--"an animal like that?" Vito replied to the effect that, "In this world, there are some men who go around shouting, 'kill me, kill me...the trick is to make yourself the only person in the world who he desires not to kill him...then he is yours." Puzo writes, "It was one of the most valuable lessons given by the Don before he died, and Michael had used it to make Neri his Luca Brasi." Now, Neri was old, and Michael had made Vincent his new Luca Brasi. GFIII may not have been as good as the other films, but it was pretty good. Also, I didn't have any problem with Sophia's performance. That being said, I agree with your analysis TB. Michael could not possibly have forgotten how ruthless his business was. He still needed a good strong young right arm. His words to Zasa in his office about anyone who says f**k Michael Corleone shows undeniably that he still had some raw instincts and inclination.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Why does Michael make Vincent his protege?
[Re: Danito]
#443043
10/12/07 06:08 AM
10/12/07 06:08 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,845
Newcastle-upon-Tyne UK
Yogi Barrabbas
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,845
Newcastle-upon-Tyne UK
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Yes GFIII is a much maligned film for the simple reason its does'nt match the huge quality of it's predecessors...? I get sick of people who all say the same thing "GFI & II are great but the third one is rubbish" It might not be as good as the first 2 but it is anything but rubbish  Sorry for the rant there folks and the loss of topic... My apologies,just a little pet hate of mine rearing its ugly head
Last edited by Yogi Barrabbas; 10/12/07 06:08 AM.
I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees!
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Re: Why does Michael make Vincent his protege?
[Re: MaryCas]
#443129
10/12/07 01:10 PM
10/12/07 01:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Grerat thread and great analyses all.
I agree that Michael saw Zasa as a problem. We know for instance that Zasa was mad because Michael was keeping him from rising up in the commission. What he didn't know of course was tthat Zasa was supported by Altobello, who in turn was supported by Luchese, and all of whom for various reasons were keeping Michael from rising up in the legitimate world.
Michael was upset at Vincent for choosing to go to work for Zasa instead of him, and never missing an opportunity to put his own people down, when Vincent screwed things up with Zasa, bringing something to a head that Michael wanted suppressed, it is not surprising that he would insult Vincent by telling him what do you want to be for me a "Wise guy?" And that he needed lawyers, not more muscle. But Vincent's retort that Zasa knew Michael was working against Zasa showed Michael that Vincent had cunning and knew what he was doing. Still worried about his temper and lack of sophistication, Michael then tells Vincent to stick with him, keep his mouth shut and learn something. I think he saw Vincent as a way he could "go legitimate" with the Immobiliare deal, but keep his finger in the Mob using Vincent as a surrogate. Of course once Michael learned that Luchese and Altobello were aligned, he needed Vincent to be his "righthand man," and ultimately his successor.
I have always found the biggest plot flaw in GFIII (and I think I have said this many times on these boards) was the speed with which Vincent rose through the ranks. It seems like one minute he was a street thug with a secret club where he made gnocchi and Mary, and the next minute he is this sophisticated Capo, talking at the highest levels with Michael and Dontomassino, and even fooling Altobello and Luchese into believing he would work for them (btw Luca Brasi tried the same ruse with the tattaglias and was not as successful).
Then again he didn't turn out to be so hot at running what should have been a relatively easy security operation at the Opera House did he.
Last edited by dontomasso; 10/12/07 03:00 PM.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Why does Michael make Vincent his protege?
[Re: Danito]
#443147
10/12/07 02:14 PM
10/12/07 02:14 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,508
AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,508
AZ
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Now, Neri was old, and Michael had made Vincent his new Luca Brasi. Vito would never have made Luca Brasi his successor. And he "thought Santino was a bad don". Vincent appears to me more like Sonny. Yes, that's true, Danito. But I don't think Michael intended Vincent to be his successor, literally. Vincent would be more like Zasa's successor. I've said before that, if Michael'd had his way, he'd be "completely" legit (by his definition), running Immobiliare with his usual ruthlessness. A guess is that he'd use it at least in part as a money-laundering vehicle (why else would he be interested in an Italian real estate firm?). Vincent would be head of an ever-shrinking "olive oil business." having gotten that "prize" by giving up Mary so Michael could arrange her marriage to a "legitimate" husband. Vincent would be lurking in the background as an ally and a warning of violence to anyone who opposed Michael in the "legitimate" world. He would be to Michael as The Ant was to Zasa--but at arms-length. dt, I agree with you that Vincent's rise was too fast to be credible. It's one of the many plot flaws that diminish GFIII.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Why does Michael make Vincent his protege?
[Re: Turnbull]
#443152
10/12/07 02:30 PM
10/12/07 02:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
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Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
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dt, I agree with you that Vincent's rise was too fast to be credible. It's one of the many plot flaws that diminish GFIII.
No question that Vincent's rise to power happened too quickly. But was that intentinal on FFC's part? Was it part of the plot? It was Michael's desperation to become legitimate through Immobiliare that caused him to make some hasty decisions. It was his thirst for legitimacy, his wanting to "get out" of the life that perhaps made him rush Vincent through this mentoring process. Because in the end Vincent blew it at the opera house. The men that he chose, the twins, were NOT as good as they looked. The revenge that Vincent carried out on behalf of the Corleones was well done, but who really carried it out? Neri, Calo, etc. The experienced people. Michael's people. It was Michael's rush to install Vincent in a position of power that cost him his daughter, his family, his legitimacy and his peace. I think that FFC intentionally wrote it that way, intentionally wanted to show that Michael, in his hunger for legitimacy, rushed Vincent along into a position of power and wound up paying dearly for it in the end!
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
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Re: Why does Michael make Vincent his protege?
[Re: Turnbull]
#443166
10/12/07 03:03 PM
10/12/07 03:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso
Consigliere to the Stars
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Consigliere to the Stars
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Well, as you sagely observed in an earlier thread, DC: Michael's most dangerous enemy wasn't Roth, or Barzini, or Altobello--it was himself. Amen to that. One of the many differences between Michael and his father, upon which I do not think we have touched was Vito's stated tendency to think and re-think his position many times before acting. He tells Michael this in his final scene with him, and makes some comment about how men cannot be careless. Michael had more of Sonny's temperament in him than he would like to a have admitted, and sometimes he made snap decisions without thinking it through. I think bringing Vincent along as he did was one of them.
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"
"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."
"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."
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Re: Why does Michael make Vincent his protege?
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#444314
10/18/07 10:05 AM
10/18/07 10:05 AM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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... during the conversation, Michael's demeanor changes and he ends up taking Vincent under his wing.
Why? What does Vincent say or do in that scene that impresses Michael so much? It's called 'lousy writing', and it's the front & foremost reason for GFIII being so inferior to the other two. Apple
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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