When Mike says to Kay that he would not know when he would come back (in the hotel). Did he make his decision then to kill sollozo?

Well, think about it. Whether in the novel or film, what prompted the plan to kill Sollozzo?: the attempted hit on Vito while he was in the hospital.

so why does he say "i dont know when you (Kay) will see me again"?

Well, his father was in critical condition in the hospital. His house was garrisoned by button men and his brother was a target of any number of the other families' button men. One Corleone wiseguy had turned traitor and was murdered for it; another had been eliminated. So, I imagine he didn't know.

Would you want to come back to Kay with that hair style she had?

Michael could not have known at that point that he would kill S&M. But it's a clear statement to Kay that, at least for the time being, he "belonged" to his family, and not to her--that his relationship with her would have to take at least a temporary backseat to whatever he had to do to help his father. So, in a way, you could argue that it marked the beginning of his move to Donship.

Thanks for the info everyone. I think what Turnbull said clears everything up.

I think you are correct TB, and I would add that Michael sensed that Sonny was not up to being a good Don. In the brief time after the hit, Sonny is out of control and not thinking clearly. Luca has turned up dead, and Sonny has ordered Paulie's execution in front of more people than he had to. I think Mike
was unsure how he would fit in, but his telling Kay that he now belonged to the family, and the brilliant instinct he showed by going to the hospital only to find his father unguarded sealed it for him. I think even if there had been gaurds around, Michael was going to the hospital to tell his father "I'm with you now, Pop."

There's no evidence that Michael sensed anything about Sonny. Sonny out of control? That is quite an exageration, n'est pas? Sonny gets the call from Sollozzo and acts prudently by placing both Clemenza and Paulie under suspicion. He gets the phone company to report on Clemenza's and Paulie's phone calls. He recruits Tessio's regime to replace Clemenza's and has them guard not only the house but the hospital also. Again, prudence.
His instructions about Paulie are in front of the top three people in the family and his brother and the instructions are ambiguous. Hardly a risk. I'm not sure why you bring up Luca's death as a function of Sonny's demeanor.

Mike went to the hospital almost as an afterthought. He did it late, after his date with Kay. That's hardly the behavior of one committed to his family. He didn't tell Kay anything about his intentions. It was only when he discovers his father in jeopardy that he tells him that he is with him now. However, that statement is undefined. What did he mean by it: that he was willing to take up arms; that he wanted to command a regime? I don't think so. He was simply expressing a familial love for his father and comforting him.

I beg to differ.

When Michael gets back to the compound he finds Teresa Hagen neglected "waiting in a lobby." Sonny didn't even think about her, and Michael had to take up the slack.

Inside the office, Sonny asks for Tom's advice about what to do if Vito dies, and when Tom tells him the harsh truth, Sonny replies by saying ,"That's easy for you to say, he's not your father."

Next he tries to enlist Mike in the war and Tom has to remind him that Mike should not be too directly involved.

Then he orders Paulie's death in front of Tom, Mike, Tessio and Clemenza...talk about not using buffas....

The next day he insults Clemenza for teaching Michael how to cook pasta by telling him to cut the crap, and then he asks in front of everyone in the kitchen about Paulie's fate.

It is in that same scene where Michael says he is going to the city to visit Pop in the hospital, so that visit is not an afterthougt. He was going there for a reason.

Now, revisit your statement about Sonny: "out of control." With your latest post you haven't made your case.In my previous post I addressed several of your original statements that you simply repeated in your latest post. Also, how in the world is Sonny's failure to console Teresa on camera evidence of his being out of control?

Speaking of restraint: Michael actually did a volte-face:
When he first steps into Vito's study after the shooting, he finds Sonny making his hit-list. "You gonna kill all those guys?" he asks. "Wait, Sonny..." is his advice. But after the hospital and the broken jaw, he tells Sonny & Co.: "You can't wait..."
Logic was on Michael's side in both cases. Before the hospital, he sensed that, if Vito survived, his chances for negotiating a settlement favorable to the Corleones would be greatly diminished by further bloodshed. But after the hospital, he saw that Sollozzo was determined to kill Vito, and that he had to go, even if it meant killing McCluskey, too. Of course, this could lead to the age-old debate about whether Michael's advice and his volunteering to kill S&M was business or personal--but I'm not going there!

Well TB, not completely....Sonny is talking about killing EVERYONE not just Solozzo. Michael's conclusion that killing Vito is the key for Solozzo is based on evidence. He has seen that Solle Solozzo controlled the police who pulled the guards off of the Hospital watch so they could have another whack at Vito. This makes him realize that the "key" for Solozzo is killing Vito. It may well be the other families gave the go ahead to Sollozzo to do this, with the caveat that if he failed they would not back his drug business. OF course after Michael got slapped around, Sonny went off and killed Bruno Tattaglia ensuring there would be a full scale war...and he is bragging to Tom about having a hundred button men on the street.

I wonder... if Sonny had not killed Bruno, and if Michael had killed Sollozzo and McCluskey and fled to Sicily, couldn't a deal to avoid a full scale war been reached?

Olivant and Don T, you BOTH make some very valid points. And I agree with some that BOTH of you have made here.

Olivant - I believe that in that "I'm with you know pop" hospital scene, that Michael realized that he needed to get somewhat involved in his father's business at that point. Was what he said a gesture of love on his part? Absolutely. But I also think that his saying that had somewhat of a double meaning. His finding that his father was unguarded at the hospital is what set his wheels in motion. From that point he puts his own plan into action, moving his father to another room, etc. He's keen enough to realize that they will be back to attempt to kill his father, and he uses Enzo as part of his plan. Then in the lighter scene on the steps, I believe that he took the next step towards getting involved in his father's business. That scene, in my opinion, was the defining moment for Michael. And then his getting slugged by McClusky was the decision maker, the action that made up his mind 100% for him.
It was strictly business, but it was the personal feelings that he had for McClusky that pushed him over that fine line. 2 shots for the Police Captain was NOT strictly business.

DT - The farthest thing from Santino's mind at that point was worrying about Therasa Hagen. He would leave that for his mother, his own wife, and his sister. It was not a priority at that point. I have to agree with Olivant in that under the circumstances Sonny stood pretty calm and though things out at that point. He was clever enough NOT to initially let Clemenza's people come to the compund or even let Clemenza know everything that was going on because Sonny was smart enough, in all that was taking place, to realize that it was one of Clemenza's people, if not Clemenza himself, that set up Vito.

His later asking Clemenza about Paulie, in front of the other soldiers, was not negligent or out of control at all. There really was nothing said that could tie him into the killing of Paulie. And at the same time it was, in it's own way, a pretty smart thing to let the other soldiers hear. It sent a message that if anyone was even thinking of turning on the Corleones, with Sonny as boss they would die.

As for Michael initially sensing that Sonny was not in control. I don't know about that. I think that Michael's decision to stay and protect his father, get involved somewhat, was more due to the fact that Michael was the son most like his father. A calm, cool and collective head under pressure. A trait, like Vito's, that displayed the ability NOT to act in haste, but to think things out. I really don't believe that Michael was thinking that Sonny could not lead the family or stay under control. I think that what Michael was really like deep down inside came to the surface and he automatically went into Vito Corleone like mode.

That's what I meant when I said logic was on Michael's side in both cases.


The novel made it pretty clear that the police made a massive crackdown on all the Mob rackets they'd formerly protected following Sollozzo's murder. No money was coming in. A representative of the Five Families visited Sonny and asked if the Corleones would give up the murderer. After Sonny told them it was none of their concern, a bomb went off at the mall, several Corleone men were assassinated at dinner--and the Five Families War of 1946 was launched. So, I conclude that the murder of McCluskey, not those of Bruno Tattaglia and Sollozzo, triggered the war.

Keep in mind that DT's original premise was that Sonny went crazy right after his father was shot, that night and the next day or so. I think it's pretty clear that he didn't. Now, we are discussing basic errors that of judgement that Sonny made in the aftermath of his father's attempted murder. That means more than a few days; it means weeks, maybe even months. Those errors I can agree with. So does Vito. Those are the reasons why Vito tells Tom that Sonny was a bad don.

I never said Sonny went crazy I said he was not in control and he was not exercising good judgment. Lets keep to the facts here.

Mi dispiace. You said he was out of control. Nevertheless, there s a difference between being not in control and being out of control. Out of control denotes a much more severe condition than not in control.

I've never been able to fully comprehend Michael's behavior in these scenes.

At first glance, it seems clear that the assassination attempt in the hospital leads to his decision to join the family.

However, his previous conversation with Kay had a real finality to it. There was no reason to believe that Kay (or Michael) were in danger ("Sollozzo knows he's a civilian."). As for protecting Kay's reputation, Michael was already known to be a war hero and estranged from his father's affairs ("Kid's clean, Captain. He's a war hero."), so that isn't a compelling reason to send Kay back to New England. And if it was the reason, I'd expect Michael to reassure Kay that he'd see her when things settled down a bit.

Instead, he basically dismisses her and tells her "don't call me, I'll call you." This behavior is consistent with Michael already deciding to be "with" his father, and being unsure how (or whether) Kay would fit into his life's new direction.

The question that remains is why did Michael do an about-face. There's no clear answer. I remain unconvinced that he was dissatisfied with Sonny's leadership.

Perhaps it was simply time for Michael to fulfill what Puzo would call his "one destiny."

LW, First of all, Happy Birthday!!! Hope you have many, many more.

As for Michael and Kay, I believe that Michael (an the novel may go into more detail) felt that the assassination attempt on his father brought the Family into the media spotlight, such as it was then. I think in the novel, he even tells Kay that there might be reporters at the hospital when she wants to visit Vito.

I believe Michael was afraid that Kay would be dragged into the 1940's equivalent of a media frenzy, and he didn't want that to happen. At the wedding, she obviously didn't have a full grasp of what his family (and Family) was truly about, and I don't think he wanted her to really find out.

Of course, the novel provides much more explanation. But you are essentially correct. Michael knew enough about his family to know that this whole thing could get worse and invite alot of publicity that Kay would not want to be part of. If there were plenty of guards at the hospital, then the premise for Mike's change in attitude toward his family would not have been there and he would have become a mathematics professor.

Thanks for the birthday wishes, SB. The internet's amazing: Thanks to this board and a couple of other sites, I've been getting more birthday wishes from people I barely know than actual family/friends.

As to the Michael/Kay interaction, compare that scene to the previous Michael/Kay scenes (esp. the deleted scene in the hotel room), Michael's demeanor toward her has totally changed. It's much closer to the GFII Michael than the early GFI Michael.

I don't think that change can be explained by Michael simply worrying about Kay and her family being tracked down by the paparazzi.

I think he has already begun the transformation into the monster he would become, and he is beginning to realign the priorities in his life.

I think he may have subconsciously started the transition, but it wasn't complete until the hospital scene

Now, keep in mind that it is his father who has been attacked. He was too young to be aware of previous attacks on his father such as Sonny referred to in the Saga and is stated in the novel. Thus, this attack would be expected to ignite in him the same passion that it would probably ignite in most if not all of us in the same situation. Had Sollozzo been killed soon thereafter, then Mike never volunteers for the assignment, never indulges in bloodletting, never goes to Sicily, never, experieinces life with Appolonia and her death, Sonny never gets killed, and on and on. Mike becomes a mathematics professor.

Mike studies law, instead of mathematics, right?

Mathematics.

I actually thought it was history.

In the novel, in a convrsationw with Kay, Mike refers to a history college course he took. However, in another conversation on the night his father is shot as they are walking back from the theater to their hotel, they are discussing marriage and he tells her that he is going to be a mathematics professor.