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The Godfather and Religion #420971
08/01/07 11:33 AM
08/01/07 11:33 AM
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olivant Offline OP
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Despite the presence of religious ceremony in the Trilogy, there is no indication that Vito, his sons, or any other main characters believed in God or even acknowleged any religious adherence.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: olivant] #420985
08/01/07 12:15 PM
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johnny ola Offline
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 Originally Posted By: olivant
Despite the presence of religious ceremony in the Trilogy, there is no indication that Vito, his sons, or any other main characters believed in God or even acknowledge any religious adherence.


.....nor do we know anything of the contrary. My best guess is that the majority of the main characters were Catholic and basically believed in God but weren't too concerned with being what might be considered "Good Practicing Catholics", which is what many if not most Catholics could be considered today. Many Catholics today are what is called "Buffet Catholics", they pick and chose parts of the religion that appeals to them.


I love my Chrysler and tuna fish sandwiches.
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: johnny ola] #420992
08/01/07 12:32 PM
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olivant Offline OP
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Well, what is apparent is the striking contrast between the ceremonial presence of religion in the Trilogy and the lack of religious practice by the films' protagonists.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: olivant] #420997
08/01/07 12:38 PM
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Fredo practiced his religion faithfully with his Hail Mary's, look what that got him \:o


-In my HOME!!! In my BEDROOM WHERE MY WIFE SLEEPS!! Where my children come and play with their toys. In my home.

-My father taught me many things here -- he taught me in this room. He taught me -- keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: Carson_Corleone] #421011
08/01/07 01:34 PM
08/01/07 01:34 PM
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Connies daughter was baptized so i'm sure they were catholics by name at least.

Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: Zaf-the-don] #421017
08/01/07 01:40 PM
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olivant Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: Zaf-the-don
Connies daughter was baptized so i'm sure they were catholics by name at least.


Again, that baptism is ceremony. But both Puzo and FFC did not provide much in the way of religiosity at least among the novel's and film's males.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: olivant] #421024
08/01/07 01:45 PM
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It is interesting that the only one you seeing practicing religion is Kay, in a deleted scene. Aside from the ceremonies, I would say that is the only glimpse that we get of "practicing" religion, aside from the aforementioned ceremonies.


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Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: Sicilian Babe] #421026
08/01/07 01:48 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Sicilian Babe
It is interesting that the only one you seeing practicing religion is Kay, in a deleted scene. Aside from the ceremonies, I would say that is the only glimpse that we get of "practicing" religion, aside from the aforementioned ceremonies.


Do Fredo's hail mary's not count?


-In my HOME!!! In my BEDROOM WHERE MY WIFE SLEEPS!! Where my children come and play with their toys. In my home.

-My father taught me many things here -- he taught me in this room. He taught me -- keep your friends close, but your enemies closer.
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: Carson_Corleone] #421030
08/01/07 02:00 PM
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I would count Fredo's Hail Mary's as more of a good luck gesture, akin to carrying a rabbit's foot or wearing your lucky fishing hat.


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Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: Sicilian Babe] #421045
08/01/07 02:34 PM
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None of the Corleones were devout or practicing Catholics, despite attending church on special occasions or adhering to certain rituals when convenient. They weren't different from many (most?) other Catholics (or Protestants or Jews, for that matter) in that regard.

But "religion" played an important role in all three films, in a deeply cynical way. Notice how violence invariably gets mixed in with religious ceremony or occasions throughout the Trilogy. Vito gets shot right around Christmas, with all the yuletide trappings blaring at us in that scene and the surrounding ones. The Great Massacre of 1955 occurs against a backdrop of a baptism, with church music. The massacre climaxes as the priest asks Michael, "Do you renounce Satan and all his works," and Michael says "I do." And: Fanucci murdered during the San Rocco religious parade, the Tahoe machine-gunning following Anthony's first communion party, Fredo murdered while saying his Hail Marys, Archbishop Gilday's corruption, Zasa murdered during the San Gennaro Festival--you know all the rest. You don't have to be a Certified Deep Thinker to figure out what FFC is trying to tell us.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: Turnbull] #421050
08/01/07 02:48 PM
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And despite their lack of religious fervor Michael got to become a member of the Order of Something or other by a special proclamation of the Pope.

And lest we forget a quasi Corleone....Tom Hagen's son was an ordained priest!


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: Sicilian Babe] #421063
08/01/07 03:08 PM
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olivant Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: Sicilian Babe
I would count Fredo's Hail Mary's as more of a good luck gesture, akin to carrying a rabbit's foot or wearing your lucky fishing hat.


Yes, Fredo's Hail Mary had brought him fishing luck in the past. But, there is another GFII script where Mary in Heaven says "I was hoping he was praying not to get shot, but, alas, it was only to catch fish. My Son is better at this than I am."


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: Turnbull] #421084
08/01/07 04:15 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Turnbull
None of the Corleones were devout or practicing Catholics, despite attending church on special occasions or adhering to certain rituals when convenient. They weren't different from many (most?) other Catholics (or Protestants or Jews, for that matter) in that regard.

But "religion" played an important role in all three films, in a deeply cynical way. Notice how violence invariably gets mixed in with religious ceremony or occasions throughout the Trilogy. Vito gets shot right around Christmas, with all the yuletide trappings blaring at us in that scene and the surrounding ones. The Great Massacre of 1955 occurs against a backdrop of a baptism, with church music. The massacre climaxes as the priest asks Michael, "Do you renounce Satan and all his works," and Michael says "I do." And: Fanucci murdered during the San Rocco religious parade, the Tahoe machine-gunning following Anthony's first communion party, Fredo murdered while saying his Hail Marys, Archbishop Gilday's corruption, Zasa murdered during the San Gennaro Festival--you know all the rest. You don't have to be a Certified Deep Thinker to figure out what FFC is trying to tell us.


Why do you think Francis Ford Coppola portrayed religion that way?

Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: Zaf-the-don] #421098
08/01/07 05:21 PM
08/01/07 05:21 PM
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It's quite obvious to me that The Corleones were Catholics. Perhaps not practicing Catholics, or devout Catholics. But from what we are shown ceremonial wise with Baptisms, Communions, Ordained Priests and Papal Honors throughout the trilogy, they were Catholics.



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Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: olivant] #421114
08/01/07 07:02 PM
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 Originally Posted By: olivant
Well, what is apparent is the striking contrast between the ceremonial presence of religion in the Trilogy and the lack of religious practice by the films' protagonists.


Yes it is, but combining the religious scenes with the violence, especially the baptismal scene, does add to the dramatic. First we hear Michael renouncing Satan, then in the next scene we see Rocco and another man blasting Tattaglia in bed with his lady friend.


I love my Chrysler and tuna fish sandwiches.
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: johnny ola] #421124
08/01/07 07:44 PM
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What we didn't see/hear was Michael silently saying to himself ".. after I deal with the heads of the Five Families." after he agrees to renounce Satan.


Wayne

"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger."
Don Lucchesi
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: waynethegame] #421136
08/01/07 09:11 PM
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Mama Corleone was "sought of" a practicing Catholic,well in the novel at least.She would go to church quite regularly and pray for "Vito's soul" and she eventually convinced Kay to start doing it.In part three,it shows Michael becoming more "God fearing",well at least a tiny bit. ;\)


The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero uses his fear, projects it onto his opponent, while the coward runs. It's the same thing, fear, but it's what you do with it that matters. Cus D'Amato
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: olivant] #421144
08/01/07 09:30 PM
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 Originally Posted By: olivant
Despite the presence of religious ceremony in the Trilogy, there is no indication that Vito, his sons, or any other main characters believed in God or even acknowleged any religious adherence.


Hmmm? I can't think of a post that has addressed this issue. There are many observations and conjectures that can be derived from the religious aspect of the GF films.

From a Catholic standpoint, the Corleones were not devout Catholics (by the films depiction). In the book, Mama Corleone and later Kay are devout, prayful Catholics. But the religious aspect of the film provides a wonderful contrast and hypocrisy of the Corleone family. The obvious ones are no doubt the Baptism and murders of the Five Families. Catholic sacremental celebrations provide the backdrop for several scenes; in GF the Wedding of Connie and Carlo (although not in the church, but the priest is there), the Wedding in Sicily, the Baptism of Michael Rizzi. In GF II the Confirmation party of Anthony and in GF III the Commendatore award to Michael, all the Vatican stuff....the GF triology finds itself associated with Catholic Church ceremony. Why?

As a practicing Catholic, from a practical viewpoint I see religion for some people as an insurance policy and a cultural tradition. They better stay close to the church...just in case AND, the sacraments of the church (Baptism, Communion, Confirmation, Holy Matrimony, etc.) are a cultural experience. You do it because your mother and father did it and their mother and father, etc. Too often the party is the focal point and not the Sacrament. For the GF triology the Catholic traditions enrich the story. They provide a stark contrast between good and evil. And they provide the hypocrisy that fuels human interest in the story and characters. Religion is as much a part of the trilogy as murder and revenge. Relgion helps form the psyche of the characters.


Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, whoever humbles himself will be exalted - Matthew 23:12
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: MaryCas] #422854
08/07/07 02:36 PM
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For many people in "Catholic" countries like Spain, France, Italy and SOuth America, the Church is a cultural institution as much as a religious one. If anything it is more cultural, and
the Church of Rome is in a real battle in Latin America right now for "religious" supremacy over up and coming evangelical churches.

I raise this because it would be nothing for someone like Clemenza or Luca to bless himself if he passed a church on the way to do a hit, just as Vito who coldly tells Tom his dead son was a bad don, but still manages a "rest in peace" comment in there.

Michael was a great deal more cynical and I doubt he paid more than lip service to the church (until GF III when he paid $100 million to get into that Society).


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: dontomasso] #422861
08/07/07 03:20 PM
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Well, Michael was a cold, calculating, vicious bastard, and if there's a Hell for fictional characters, he's roasting in it right now. But, I don't think it's beyond anyone entering his/her twilight years to start thinking about the hereafter and trying to buy his/her way into Heaven, whether it's Sinatra building hospitals (real life) of Michael getting a private audience with the Pope (reel life), they believed you should "never underestimate the power of forgiveness."


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: dontomasso] #422929
08/07/07 06:19 PM
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 Originally Posted By: dontomasso
...the Church of Rome is in a real battle in Latin America right now for "religious" supremacy over up and coming evangelical churches.


True. The main reason for the late Pope's visit to Cuba was to try to renew Catholicism to combat the ascendency of Santoria.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: Turnbull] #423029
08/07/07 11:08 PM
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 Originally Posted By: Turnbull
 Originally Posted By: dontomasso
...the Church of Rome is in a real battle in Latin America right now for "religious" supremacy over up and coming evangelical churches.


True. The main reason for the late Pope's visit to Cuba was to try to renew Catholicism to combat the ascendency of Santoria.



......and I thought he went to pick up a few cigars, and see if he could get the National rolling again for the Lakeville Road boys \:D


I love my Chrysler and tuna fish sandwiches.
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: johnny ola] #423298
08/08/07 10:10 AM
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 Originally Posted By: johnny ola
 Originally Posted By: Turnbull
 Originally Posted By: dontomasso
...the Church of Rome is in a real battle in Latin America right now for "religious" supremacy over up and coming evangelical churches.


True. The main reason for the late Pope's visit to Cuba was to try to renew Catholicism to combat the ascendency of Santoria.



......and I thought he went to pick up a few cigars, and see if he could get the National rolling again for the Lakeville Road boys \:D



Pat Robertson - Something tells me your aide brouoght a badgul of money to the island. Where is it?

Pope - I wanna wait. How do you feel?

Pat Robertson - I'd give $4million just to take a piss.

Pope - Who ordered the hit on John Paul II? I know I didn't.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: dontomasso] #423350
08/08/07 01:08 PM
08/08/07 01:08 PM
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olivant Offline OP
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 Originally Posted By: dontomasso
 Originally Posted By: johnny ola
 Originally Posted By: Turnbull
 Originally Posted By: dontomasso
...the Church of Rome is in a real battle in Latin America right now for "religious" supremacy over up and coming evangelical churches.


True. The main reason for the late Pope's visit to Cuba was to try to renew Catholicism to combat the ascendency of Santoria.



......and I thought he went to pick up a few cigars, and see if he could get the National rolling again for the Lakeville Road boys \:D





Pat Robertson - Something tells me your aide brouoght a badgul of money to the island. Where is it?

Pope - I wanna wait. How do you feel?

Pat Robertson - I'd give $4million just to take a piss.

Pope - Who ordered the hit on John Paul II? I know I didn't.


DT, that's pretty good.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: olivant] #424553
08/09/07 08:48 PM
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One of the more poignant scenes in GFIII (there aren't too many) is Michael's confession to Cardinal Lamberto. I was glad to hear that the Cardinal stood tough. Although he gave absolution (that's what the priest does in Confession; aka the Sacrament of Penance) he did tell Michael that his sins were grave and that God would not look kindly on his soul. He also told Michael that he knew he wouldn't change. FFC could have coped out with a mushy absolution, but showed the course of evil can not be bought off when dealing with a truly honest man (Lamberto.)


Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, whoever humbles himself will be exalted - Matthew 23:12
Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: MaryCas] #427482
08/20/07 01:50 PM
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Watch in GF II ... before he has the pasta at Vito's whouse, in the scene where Vito, Tessio and Clemenza are talking about what to do about Ciccio, Clemenza blesses himself before eating.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: The Godfather and Religion [Re: dontomasso] #427483
08/20/07 01:52 PM
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May God bless us all.


The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero uses his fear, projects it onto his opponent, while the coward runs. It's the same thing, fear, but it's what you do with it that matters. Cus D'Amato

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