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It occured to me...... #415385
07/15/07 09:51 AM
07/15/07 09:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 168
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wtwt5237 Offline OP
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wtwt5237  Offline OP
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Posts: 168
I hate to resurrect a thread a while back which talked about whether Connie knew about Fredo's murder.
But today it suddenly occured to me that Kay alread knew the murder at the start of Part III and that Vincent also knew about it. It would be very natural for Connie to know it was a murder then.
PS:But it is still a little weird that Kay knew it was a murder.


One has only one destiny, he cannot choose it.
Re: It occured to me...... [Re: wtwt5237] #415388
07/15/07 10:06 AM
07/15/07 10:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi Offline
Caporegime
Don Cardi  Offline
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The Ravenite Social Club
 Originally Posted By: wtwt5237
I hate to resurrect a thread a while back which talked about whether Connie knew about Fredo's murder.
But today it suddenly occured to me that Kay alread knew the murder at the start of Part III and that Vincent also knew about it. It would be very natural for Connie to know it was a murder then.


I don't beleive that Connie was in on the plan to kill Fredo. She knew absolutely nothing about that plan. The family was told that Fredo drowned in a boat accident while fishing.

However I do believe that eventually Connie (as well as a few others who were "inside" the family), came to realize that Michael ordered the death of his own brother. Carefully read the exchange between Connie and Michael in GFIII where Connie and Mike are talking on the balcony and Connie is preparing Mike's insulin shot. More importantly, to get a better feeling, watch the scene when you get a chance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

MICHAEL: I made confession, Connie. I confessed my sins.

CONNIE: Why Michael, that's not like you. You don't have to confess your sins to a stranger.

MICHAEL: It was the man. A good man. A true priest. He changed things.

CONNIE: Michael, you know, sometimes I think of poor Fredo, drowned. It was God's will. It was a terrible accident. But it's finished.

(then, after Michael sighs)

Michael, I love you. I'll always help you.

<They hug. Connie starts crying and Michael comforts her.>
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Now all Michael says was that he went to confession and that the Cardinal was a good priest who changed things. And what does Connie bring up to him? Fredo's death. Almost as if she knows that Michael was struggling with his own guilt in having Fredo killed and that is why he needed to confess to Lamberto.

It was as if Connie was really telling Michael "Don't worry about it, I don't hold it against you, it's finished, let it go, it's over with and I love you anyway."

Why would she bring up Fredos death unless deep down inside she knew that Michael had him killed and that Michael was struggling with guilt. She attempts to ease Michael's conscience with her reply.



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: It occured to me...... [Re: Don Cardi] #415395
07/15/07 10:28 AM
07/15/07 10:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,539
My own world.
whisper Offline
Underboss
whisper  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,539
My own world.
I think about how it got out in the open though.What i mean is the truth behind Fredo's death.Even Mary and Vincent know about it,Kay says"Anthony knows you killed Fredo".How did it get out in the open?


The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero uses his fear, projects it onto his opponent, while the coward runs. It's the same thing, fear, but it's what you do with it that matters. Cus D'Amato
Re: It occured to me...... [Re: Don Cardi] #415476
07/15/07 11:17 AM
07/15/07 11:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
 Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
 Originally Posted By: wtwt5237
I hate to resurrect a thread a while back which talked about whether Connie knew about Fredo's murder.
But today it suddenly occured to me that Kay alread knew the murder at the start of Part III and that Vincent also knew about it. It would be very natural for Connie to know it was a murder then.


I don't beleive that Connie was in on the plan to kill Fredo. She knew absolutely nothing about that plan. The family was told that Fredo drowned in a boat accident while fishing.

However I do believe that eventually Connie (as well as a few others who were "inside" the family), came to realize that Michael ordered the death of his own brother. Carefully read the exchange between Connie and Michael in GFIII where Connie and Mike are talking on the balcony and Connie is preparing Mike's insulin shot. More importantly, to get a better feeling, watch the scene when you get a chance.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

MICHAEL: I made confession, Connie. I confessed my sins.

CONNIE: Why Michael, that's not like you. You don't have to confess your sins to a stranger.

MICHAEL: It was the man. A good man. A true priest. He changed things.

CONNIE: Michael, you know, sometimes I think of poor Fredo, drowned. It was God's will. It was a terrible accident. But it's finished.

(then, after Michael sighs)

Michael, I love you. I'll always help you.

<They hug. Connie starts crying and Michael comforts her.>
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Now all Michael says was that he went to confession and that the Cardinal was a good priest who changed things. And what does Connie bring up to him? Fredo's death. Almost as if she knows that Michael was struggling with his own guilt in having Fredo killed and that is why he needed to confess to Lamberto.

It was as if Connie was really telling Michael "Don't worry about it, I don't hold it against you, it's finished, let it go, it's over with and I love you anyway."

Why would she bring up Fredos death unless deep down inside she knew that Michael had him killed and that Michael was struggling with guilt. She attempts to ease Michael's conscience with her reply.


I too think that Connie deduced Fredo's murder and was trying to assuage Micahel's guilt over it. Kay deduced it also. I'm sure that when the boat returned without Fredo there was an explanation by Neri and the inevitable questions that must have followed.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: It occured to me...... [Re: whisper] #415728
07/15/07 03:07 PM
07/15/07 03:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,512
AZ
 Originally Posted By: whisper the don from down under
Even Mary and Vincent know about it,Kay says"Anthony knows you killed Fredo".How did it get out in the open?

A good bet is that Kay told them. In Washington, when Kay told Michael she was leaving, she finally knew all about him and his ways. There is no doubt that, when Fredo turned up missing, Kay concluded that Michael had him killed. Since Michael grabbed the kids and made Kay out to be a pariah (note the Dreaded Corleone Stare when Kay's about to leave the compound after her visit), Kay had an incentive to tell the kids her side of the story. At some point, I imagine, one or both of them might have said, "Dad says you had an illegal operation and killed our brother-to-be," at which point Kay might have retaliated with, "Your father is a murderer--he killed your Uncle Fredo." Apart from that, Anthony may have been a mediocre tenor but he wasn't stupid--his resentment and fear of his father, which we see glimpses of in II, would have led him to conclude that Fredo's disappearance was no accident.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: It occured to me...... [Re: Turnbull] #415731
07/15/07 03:14 PM
07/15/07 03:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,539
My own world.
whisper Offline
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whisper  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 4,539
My own world.
Thanks TB.Makes sense.

I always used to ponder that.


The hero and the coward both feel the same thing, but the hero uses his fear, projects it onto his opponent, while the coward runs. It's the same thing, fear, but it's what you do with it that matters. Cus D'Amato
Re: It occured to me...... [Re: whisper] #415753
07/15/07 04:32 PM
07/15/07 04:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
Sicilian Babe  Offline

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
Anthony was supposed to go fishing with Uncle Fredo when Connie took him out of the boat. Although he may not have understood the implication of the boat returning without Fredo, he certainly could have put the pieces together when he was older.

I don't think Mary knew about Fredo's murder. She had a blind love for Michael, the type of love that only a very spoiled and sheltered daughter could have for a father.


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: It occured to me...... [Re: Sicilian Babe] #416074
07/16/07 09:04 AM
07/16/07 09:04 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 168
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wtwt5237 Offline OP
Made Member
wtwt5237  Offline OP
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Made Member
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Posts: 168
Then the question arises. How would Mary react if she knew for sure that his Uncle was murdered?
We have seen a doubt in her heart in his father when she conversed with Micheal about the legitimacy of the fund. Would she act like Connie. You see their characters were very similar.


One has only one destiny, he cannot choose it.
Re: It occured to me...... [Re: Sicilian Babe] #416086
07/16/07 09:46 AM
07/16/07 09:46 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi Offline
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 Originally Posted By: Sicilian Babe
Anthony was supposed to go fishing with Uncle Fredo when Connie took him out of the boat. Although he may not have understood the implication of the boat returning without Fredo, he certainly could have put the pieces together when he was older.

I don't think Mary knew about Fredo's murder. She had a blind love for Michael, the type of love that only a very spoiled and sheltered daughter could have for a father.


She may have not known for sure about Fredo's murder, but she suspected that he was murdered because in GFIII she asks Vincent if the rumors of her father having Fredo killed were true. Vincent of course dismisses those rumors ( and I think that he really knew it was true) and Mary accepts Vincents dismissal because as you said, she had a blind love for her father and really did not want to believe that her father could ever do something that terrible to his own brother.



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: It occured to me...... [Re: Don Cardi] #416533
07/17/07 10:05 AM
07/17/07 10:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
It seems that the cause of Fredo's death was common knowledge among the Corleones. It is curious that Mary would ask Vincent if it was true that Michael killed Fredo. After all she probably heard it form her mother and her brother. Connie certainly knew, and Hagen and Neri knew from the beginning.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: It occured to me...... [Re: dontomasso] #416554
07/17/07 10:48 AM
07/17/07 10:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
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olivant Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
Michael lures his brother and sister into a sense of security about Fredo. He then arranges the murder of his brother using his son and his sister as part of that deception and arrangement. How insidious! How in the world do people reconcile themselves to such people as Michael who have commiitted such sins and crimes!


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: It occured to me...... [Re: olivant] #417087
07/18/07 04:52 PM
07/18/07 04:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
DeathByClotheshanger Offline
Underboss
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Posts: 831
New Market, MD
It runs rampant in the world of the mafia.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.


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