I just finished watching the Saga. Of course, there's the scene at the hospital where Vito refers to Mike doing miracles for strangers. Then there's the flashback scene where Sonny reprises his father's words.

In this day and age when the word patriotism is thrown around so much and adherence thereto is challeneged just as much, I wonder how Vito's attitude would have been taken if widely known.

Patriotism is over rated.I dont think he was un American per se.I think he held on to his old school ways and values.Also Michael is his son.To Vito he's watching his son risk his life for strangers,literally.I think thats what Vito saw first before seeing it as a service to America.

I can't answer that but I think Vito wouldn't have cared what others thought. To him family was the most important thing. He wouldn't dare possibly sacrifice a member of his family for anything like country.

To answer your question Olivant, remember what he says to Michael in the deleted Genco hospital scene? He asks him about his medals and then sarcastically remarks "what miracles you perform for strangers."

Remember what Michael says to Sonny when they are talking about the war and Sonny remarks " Your country is not your blood." Michael's reply? " That's pop talking."


I think that no matter where Vito lived his only concern was his family, his business, and how he could make both better. Country to him was secondary. An afterthought. What did his native country do for him when his family was wiped out? What did his new country do for him when his living was taken away by a local mobster? I don't believe that he cared what others thought about his lack of loyalty to the country.



I think that sums it up best about Vito and patriotism.

Do you think Vito's attitude towards country and patriotism is deliberately set by Mario, perhaps for this attitude is something common among true Mafias?

Patriotism is subjective, everybody has a different view on it, so did Vito as said above by other posters. However the people in the mafia cared about making money that was there key. If Patriotism made money for them or made them look good then they would do it if not then they wont give a danm.

Probabaly the old school gangsters wouldnt as they were more closed up and more racist (proabably due to the way they were treated before).

Exactly right Zaf.

Proof of that in mob history is the story of how the mob "helped" the government in protecting the waterfront during WWII and the way that they helped American and allied troops land and make their way through Sicily because they knew the terrain better than anyone else. I don't think that the mob volunteered to help our government during WWII because they bled red, white and blue. The color that they were really loyal to was the color green, as in dollars.

Vito loved America, the land of opportunity. He just didn't believe in its system, whether it be law, politics or military.

He would have probably said the same had Mike enlisted in the Italian army.

It's not that I disagree with you Whisper, it's that I disagree with YOUR right to say that American patriotism is overrated. You're Australian, and you have no idea what it's been like over here for the last few years.

Perhaps if someone drove an airplane into the outback or into a dingo farm and an American poster said something to the effect of "eh, they're just a bunch of Aussies and their sense of themselves is overrated," then you'd understand.

As far as Vito, well, he came here from a goverment (Sicily- early 20th century) that did not care about him, so how trustful could he have been of an American government that was foreign to him? I'm not trying to make excuses for him, it's just that I think I have an understanding of his thought process.

Exactly, PB. You have to understand the Sicilian culture and their mistrust of the government. To Vito, having grown up where outlaws WERE the law, then the government was not something that you trusted with your life. He also had some first-hand experience with American judges, policemen and politicians that could be bought. He couldn't possibly begin to understand the mindset of someone that was willing to put their life on the line for their country.

Well put, SB. I have nothing to add to that.

I made PB speechless?? Uh-oh, look for glaciers in this heat!!

Well thought out, intelligent posts shut me right up.

Vito speaks to this issue himself in the first scene of the movie. After Bonasera talks about how he came to America and raised his daughter in "the American way," Vito says "lets be honest here" and goes on to say that Bonasera made a good living, and he thought he had the police and the courts to protect him and so he didn't need "a man like me."

Vito traded in corruption. His strength was his political power.
Note that all the judges and congressmen who were invited to the wedding did not show up but they did send gifts. When Vito granted the baker's wish, he casually tells Tom to "give this to a jew congressman not in our district.

For Vito then, the concept of "country" was non existent. I am not sure about what is meant by the term "unamerican," but Vito was born in Italy and he never bought into the American system.

Yes, Vito was expressing, perfectly, the Sicilian attitude that family isn't everything--it's the only thing--and that government comes last. He wasn't being unpatriotic, just Sicilian. Plus, he had a strong dose of cynicism about government, too--most emphatically expressed in his speech to Bonasera.
Vito wasn't anti-American. He was distrustful of government, because he realized, from his own experiences, that government doesn't run itself--it's made up of men who make decisions, and are therefore weak, corrupt, unjust, venal, etc.

Vito has ambiguous feelings IMHO that are never fully resolved. While he is definitely cynical, he still holds out hope that his favorite sone will become a Senator or a Governor, and despite his nasty comment about the Christmas ribbons, don't forget that Clemenza tells Michael how everyone including his father was proud of him being a war hero.

But isn't it ironic that he took advantage of the American "system" and way of life to "make a living". Sure in the beginning he was forced to come here, to hide from the local don back home, but eventually he could have left, and found happiness elsewhere, but Vito found "paradise" here and stayed around and joined in the prosperity.

It's not that I disagree with you Whisper, it's that I disagree with YOUR right to say that American patriotism is overrated. You're Australian, and you have no idea what it's been like over here for the last few years.

Perhaps if someone drove an airplane into the outback or into a dingo farm and an American poster said something to the effect of "eh, they're just a bunch of Aussies and their sense of themselves is overrated," then you'd understand.

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Hey PB.When i say patriotism is over rated,im not talking about"american Patriotism".Im talking about patriotism full stop.Your obviously un aware that we have troops in Iraq also.As for the dingos and the out back,i live in Melbourne.Its the city.The outback is up in Northern Australia.Ive never been there and never will go there.

Anyway i meant no offence.
Maybe if terrorists started flying planes into skyscrapers in my city i might feel different though.

No dingos in Melbourne, Whisper?

Nah...I thought i would post a pic of part of my city to show bb members that im not a outback aussie.

Put it this way we dont fear dingos stealing babies around here.

For the record,we do ride kangaroo's to work.
Its heaps of fun.

Of course Vito was un-american, he was a Sicilian : )

Classic Seinfeld!!

Elaine to snobby woman: "Maybe the dingo ate your baby."

What was Santino? He had odd feelings about Pearl Harbor..."Imagine the nerve of those slanty eyed Japs doing this on Pop's birthday." So according to Santino, the only thing wrong with the attack is that is was on Vito's birthday????
No, because he also thinks that the people who enlisted are "a bunch of saps."

And unlike Vito, Santino was born in the USA

The novel really gives us the best insight to this subject. When Vito hears through one of his capos that a soldier was joining the armed forces because "this country has been good to me," Vito snaps, in a rare show of anger, "I have been good to him," but he had to let him slide because he had let his own son, Michael, slide.

In one of the earlier scripts, an exchange between Vito and Michael gives a much better insight as to why Vito felt the way that he did about country and government. In it Vito tells Michael :


"Believe in family. Can you believe in your country? Those pezzanovante of the state who decide what we shall do with our lives? Who declare wars they wish us to fight in to protect what they own? Do you put your fate in the hands of men whose only talent is that they tricked a bloc of people to vote for them? Michael, in five years the Corleone family can be completely legitimate. Very difficult things have to happen to make that possible. I can't do that anymore, but you can, if you choose to.
Believe in family, believe in a code of honor, older and higher, believe in roots that go back thousands of years into your race. Make a family, Michael, and protect it. These are our affairs, sono cosa nostras, governments only protect men who have their own individual power. Be one of those men...you have the choice."

It really gives you a much better idea as to how Vito felt about government and family.

Yeah, I've seen that before, DC.

It's a shame they had to give in to the Italian-American Civil Rights League (I wonder why? ), because that scene was deleted from the script due to the Cosa Nostra reference.

Also, the "five years" prediction by Vito ultimately ended up in the New Hampshire scene between Michael and Kay (as you well know).

That really was a joke that they had to succumb to the preasures of a Mafia run civil rights league!

And from that dialogue, you just know, that Sonny had heard Vito talk like this before...hence the end of GFII scene..."They're saps."

Yeah, I think the educated people call that "irony."

The irony of it all is that The Italain American Civil Rights League was supposed to have been formed to honor Italian Americans, defend their rights as citizens, and put a stop to the theory that all Italians were in the Mafia.

Then some guy who was a memeber of that organization, would go around to the neighborhood stores and businesses and tell them that they would have to display the league's logo in their windows and make a donation to the league..........or else!

Patriotism meant nothing to Vito. Sonny didn't like some other country dropping bombs in his country but after that, he could have cared less. He was two-faced on the subject.

I remember reading in Sammy Gravano's book that John Gotti hated the government so much that he was rooting for Iraq to win the Gulf War in 91.