A lot of meaningful stuff is going on in the scene with Michael and Tom right after Michael returns from Havana. It raises several questions, too.
FFC wants us to believe that the scene occurs immediately after Michael’s hasty exit from Cuba. Michael’s wearing the same suit he wore to the New Year’s Eve party. He’s obviously exhausted, traveling continuously, probably with no sleep. Likely the little “private plane” took him from Havana to Miami where, perhaps, he caught one of the new jets (introduced in 1958), either directly to Vegas (he’s at the Desert Inn) or in multiple stops. He could have gotten there from Cuba in 48 hours or less.
He asks Rocco and Neri to step out so he can talk to Tom privately. Obviously FFC staged it that way to prepare for Michael’s “Was it a boy????” outburst—Michael at that stage of his life never would have shown that much emotion in front of R&N. But a lot more’s going on. For example:
1. He asks Tom, “Where’s my brother?” [emphasis added.] The last time we saw them together (after the Tahoe shooting), Michael was telling Tom he was his “brother,” and affirming his love and admiration. He could have said, “Where’s our brother?” or “Where’s Fredo?” I think this is FFC’s way of showing us that Tom’s back in the family-lawyer mode—no more brother-buddies because Michael no longer needs him to look after things while he’s gone.
2. Tom doesn’t answer Michael’s question. Instead he tells Michael that Roth had a stroke, got out in a boat, is in a hospital in Miami, will recover; and that the bodyguard is dead.
--Why didn’t Tom answer Michael’s question about Fredo? Was he embarrassed for Fredo because he knew Fredo (another of his “brothers”) was the traitor? Trying to protect Fredo (and if so, why)? Afraid to admit that he didn’t know what happened to Fredo?
--How come Tom, who didn’t know that Pentangeli had survived the Rosato brothers’ attack, knows, within 48 hours, all about what happened to two guys in Cuba whose business with Michael was kept away from him?
3. When Michael presses, Tom says, “Uh, I think he got out. He must be somewhere in New York.”
--How did Tom know he got out, and was in New York? Guessing (probably)? Or did Fredo contact Tom (Michael implies this when he tells Tom to “get in touch with Fredo…tell him everything’s all right…”).
3. Does all of this suggest that there was more to Tom’s relationship with Fredo than meets our eyes when we watch GFII?
--If so, was it part of Michael’s resentment toward Tom that led to the coldness between the two in that scene, and Michael’s viciousness toward Tom in the penultimate scene?

Your thoughts?

Great topic for debate Turnbull!



A perfect example of how Michael really was the selfish manipulator. As you said, when the attempted hit on Michael happened, Tom was "his brother," the only one that Michael could trust. Then once Michael had basically figured out what was going on after meeting with Frankie and Roth, all of a sudden he had no longer had the need for Tom as the "trusting brother." Michael threw Tom right back into the category that he had placed him in back in GFI. Michael the user, the manipulator.



I believe that Tom was indeed embarrassed because of what Fredo had done. Probably embarrassed FOR Fredo. Watching Tom in that scene, it's quite evident that he was almost trying to avoid answering Michael about Fredo, as though he was afraid that he himself would have to face the fact that Fredo was indeed the traitor. I believe that Tom loved Fredo like a brother, and that Tom knew that out of loyalty to Vito, he should have looked after Fredo a little better than he did. There was both guilt and embarrassment in Tom at that point.



It is my opinion that Tom had already spoken to Fredo. Again I think that it went back to Tom's loyalty to Vito and the Corleone family as a whole. It went back to the upbringing of Tom by Vito. And out of that loyalty somewhere inside Tom felt that he had to try and protect Fredo the best that he could. We've discussed many times on these boards the son that was most like Vito, and in the end, it was Tom who was a lot like Vito in the respect that he was the son who was with Vito more than the others, and I believe that he picked up the Vito trait that family must be protected at all costs. Tom knew that Michael had become cold and hardenend, and something tells me that he was telling a white lie to Michael about Fredo's where abouts, trying to buy some time for Fredo's well being. Tom may have felt guilt at the point that he had not honored Vito by looking out for the weak son the way that he should have. And because of that guilt Tom may even have indirectly blamed himself for what Fredo did. Somehow inside Tom knew that Michael was not going to let Fredo get away with this. I think that Tom was trying to weigh the whole situation and try and come up with a solution that would protect Fredo and satisfy Michael at the same time. Sort of in the way the the Pentangeli situation was handled.



No question about it. Tom was probably more of a brother to both Fredo and Sonny than Michael had ever been. Tom was much closer to Sonny and Fredo than Michael had ever been. Throw in the fact that a younger Michael resented the fact that the adopted brother Tom had "discussed" Michael's future with his ("you discussed MY future with MY father") father, and you have the makings of a built up resentment towards Tom by Michael.

As pointed out, Michael is a manipulator. He uses people. They are expendable to him. He thinks that he is being like his father, but he is only mimicking his father. His resentment of Tom probably goes back to when Tom was admitted to the Corleone household. Tom's failures only add to that resentment.

Tom was more Fredo and Sonny's age than Michael's, plus Michael was away at war and college for a number of years. He wasn't involved in the family business, and Tom, Fredo and Sonny all were. They spent an enormous amount of time together. And, as DC stated above, Tom was extremely devoted to Vito. I would think that he definitely felt a sincere and deep sense of love and family for Fredo. I picture Tom as the brother caught in the middle, his love to Fredo, his loyalty to Michael. It was a horrible position to be in.

I agree with Don Cardi in that this topic is a good one to discuss. Reading all the posts, I'm reminded of the scene where Michael tells Tom he loves him and always thought of him as a brother. Tom is genuinely moved in that moment and responds as such. It really does go to show you what a monster Michael becomes when he plays with peoples emotions like that, including those dear to him.

As for the whole Fredo/Michael/Tom triangle, like Sicilian Babe said there's a bit of an age gap. I believe that even though there was a deep love and respect shared between the four brothers (including Tom), Michael was excluded and thought of as the kid brother. This is further evidenced in GF1 when Michael says 'You kill all those guys' and Sonny replies 'stay ut of it Michael'. One could argue that the reason for Sonny's reply is because Michael isn't a part of the family business, but it could be construed as an analogy for 'Go to your room'. That's how it struck me anyway

Great thread TB.

I think there's no question that Tom had already been in touch with Fredo, and knew thatg he was in New York. It occurs to me that at that point it is possible that Tom was afraid that Michael would attack him if he told him that he and Fredo had been talking...

Tom - He got out. He is in New York. He called here and I told him to lay low until you got back.

Michael - You know what he did to me? You talked to him without first clearing it with me? You gave him instructions about what to do when you knew I was on the way back here? (pause) so tell me Tom what else have you not told me about?

*******************

TB as for your thought that Michael would have flown from Miami in a newly minted passenger jet....I lived in the Miami area when they were introduced, and for about the first year of commercial jet travel the only Jet flights out of Miami were to New York and Chicago. San Juan was added in '59, and the rest followed. It is possible he took a jet to Chicago, but from there he would have had to take a prop plane to Vagas, with a couple of stops IMHO .

That's what I was thinking, dt. The Boeing 707 was introduced into service in '58, but, logically, jets would have flown only on the highest volume routes initially--and Vegas in '58 wouldn't have been one of them. That's why I guessed it'd have taken Michael about 48 hours total to get from Havana to Vegas.

This raises another question: If Michael was in such a big hurry to leave Tahoe after the shooting ("If what I think has happened, has happened, I leave tonight..."), why did he take a train to Miami? I doubt a passenger train stopped at Tahoe in late '58--he'd have to have gone from Tahoe to maybe Reno or Vegas to catch a train. If he had to do that, why wouldn't he fly? And, on a long train trip, he'd be more vulnerable to unknown assassins than on flights. A guess: FFC wanted to set up that dramatically lit shot that introduced us to his bodyguard.

I have often wondered about this too. I always thought he went to LA which is a short flight from Tahoe, and took a train through Dallas, switched in New Orleans or Atlanta and went on to Miami. Even back then airlines had passenger lists, and you had to book flights, etc., and perhaps Michael didn't want anyone (i.e. Roth) to know in advance that he was coming to Miami.

I suspect Michael checked into a Hotel in Miami Beach, called Roth, told him he was in Miami and that he urgently needed to see him, and the next day he drove from Miami Beach to Roth's home with an inexplicable side trip to the Hialeah Race Track.

Which raises a quesion I have always asked, why was Michael driving himself?

[quote=Ace_Reutzel
Which raises a quesion I have always asked, why was Michael driving himself? [/quote]

Cause it would have been an insult to Roth for him to show up with a bodyguard, and he didnt want Roth to have the faintest idea that he feared him.

Wow TB, this is quite interesting.

Although I believe that the previous posts (concerning Michael's selfish nature) may be correct, I think the ultimate reasoning behind Michaels address of Fredo as "MY BROTHER" is he is being fecicious because of his obvious new-found unbrotherly feelings towards Fredo; not any resentment between he and Tom.



-- I believe that Tom didn't answer his question because (and I may be mistaking, as I haven't revisited this scene) he is interrupted by Michael, thus being annoyed by Michael's rude behavior.
-- he knows this information maybe simply because we, as the audience, need to know what happened to them, at this point, and that's how FFC could get it in (although this is definately, a good question, because, if he's that "good" then he'd definately have to know about Pentangeli)





Good question... could it be from the same mystery source where he got the information about Roth???



yes... I believe so. It has always seemed, to me, that Tom has a soft spot for Fredo and thinks he get's a "bad rap" (as do I to some extent, as most people who are familiar with me, on here know). It seems as though there is always tension between Tom and Mike, on the other hand.

After such an arduous trip, wouldn't he have been taking a chance that Roth wasn't there? Certainly, he would have made meeting arrangements well in advance. But then again, he obviously wouldn't know about the hit in advance. There's no indication before the hit that he planned to meet with Roth. So, how did it come about that he met with Roth?

Excellent point Olivant! I never gave that much thought before. We are made to believe that Michael leaves Reno right after the hit attempt to meet with Roth. Did Tom contact Roth or Ola to inform them that Michael would be coming to Miami to see Roth? I highly doubt it because at that point Michael could not trust anyone and it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense for him to inform Roth that he was going to be coming to Miami to meet him. At that point information like that could have been used to set up a second hit attempt on Michael. And I believe that Michael was smart enough to realize this. Was this a mistake on FFC's part? A hole in this part of the plot? Great observation Olivant!

Michael would have known that Roth was in Miami because Johnny Ola told him that the day of the attempted hit on him.

I understand that Don T. However would Michael really have attempted to contact Roth that quickly, immedeatly after the hit attempt, to set up a meeting still not knowing who was behind the hit attempt?

good point DC, but while Michael didn't exactly KNOW, he DID have an inclination. And maybe this was used as a tactic to not give Roth that big of a window to analyze Michael's actions (or lack-there-of)

Well, it's just common sense. You don't travel halfway across the country (and by train) to see someone because you figure they'll be home. You make arrangements in advance. There was no time for Michael to have made plans. "Our friend in Miami" is hardly Ola telling Michael that Roth is home and waiting for him. Also, right after the hit what could Michael possibly know?

Roth lived a quiet lifestyle, and Michael knew it. Part of Roth's facade was that he was sickly and reclusive, so it was more likely than not he would be home in Miami. That aside, the Corleone's people in Florida could have easily determined Roth's whereabouts. Michael's visit was supposed to put Roth at ease, and to give Roth a sense that Michael was panicking after the hit. In their conversation Roth says he knows about what happened, and Michael then tells Roth that Pentangeli arranged the hit. This is exactlyt what Roth wants to hear, and when Michael asks for permission to kill Pentangeli, Roth tells him what a thoughtful and respectful "young man" he is. So it is possible to think that the Roth meeting was not prearrranged.

Great discussion here!
Two points:
First, Michael drove because the bodyguard needed to be able to constantly look around in all directions in case assassins were lurking or following. And he needed to have his hands free to protect Michael in case of attack. This wouldn't have been possible if the bodyguard had been driving.

Second, as Michael told Frankie, his objective was to keep Roth relaxed, confident in their deal. That's why Michael or Tom) would have let Roth know he was coming. And, in any event, Johnny Ola had met Michael and the bodyguard to guide them to Roth's place--which confirms that Roth had at least some advance notice.

FFC's fanatical attention to deal is evident all over this scene. One example is Michael driving. An average director would have the bodyguard driving, like a chauffeur, with Michael in back. But FFC wanted to emphasize the seriousness of the threat to Michael by staging this seeming anomaly. Another example is their cars. Johnny Ola's driving a '58 Chrysler New Yorker--probably Roth's car, exactly what a rich Jewish guy of that era would drive (rich Italians of that era liked Cads, rich Irish liked Lincolns ;)). Michael's car is a '58 Ford Custom 300 in original two-tone colors--exactly what Mr. Avis would have rented to him in late '58. (Others have pointed out that the Ford had a later-dated Florida inspection sticker in the windshield.)

This discussion brings another question to mind.

When Michael goes to Miami and meets with Roth, Roth says this to Michael :

"I heard you had some trouble. Stupid -- people behaving like that with guns Important thing is, that you're alright. Good health -- the most important thing in the world. More than success, more than money -- more than power."

For a moment, let's pretend that we are watching the movie for the first time. Michael immedeatly leaves for Miami after the hit to meet with Roth.

Again, pretending that we are seeing this for the first time, one would have to wonder how Roth knew that there had been a hit attempt on Michael!

His knowing this and then saying this may have been a confirmation to what Michael already suspected. A confirmation that Roth WAS indeed behind the hit attempt.

Did Roth tip his hand by making that statement to Michael so soon in the conversation? Did he tip his hand by revealing that he was aware that someone tried to kill Michael before Michael even said anything to him about it?

I don't think so. I would imagine that the word on something as huge as an attempted hit on Michael Corleone in his house, in his bedroom where his wife sleeps and his children come to play with their toys would get around pretty fast. Pentangeli knew about it, and this would assume that so did Pentangeli's men, and in turn there would be a buzz among everyone who was "connected."

This raises a new question, however. Roth had a "plan B" which was to have Michael assassinated in Cuba. To me this means that when they first got to the island, Roth still believed he had hoodwinked Michael. However, by the time Roth did his Moe Green rant and made the comment that if the money wasnt on the table after his nap he would know he didn't have a partner, didn't Roth know that Michael was his enemy? Was his going to the hospital a ruse to hide from Michael? Certainly if he had not gone to the hospital the murder of Johnny Ola would have tipped him off. So when Michael asked Roth who gave the order to kill Pentangeli wasn't he showing his hand?

Well, DC, we have to accept, that in certain circles of association, news travels fast. I can't count the amount of times something has happened to me and I talk to someone within this same circle, and they know already.

How would news like a hit attempt on Michael, right in his own home, travel around? Who would dare leak that kind of news and take the chance that the enemy would know that they failed and possibly make another attempt?

You cannot count Frankie because he WAS a part of the Corleone family and in the chain of command. Word could travel within the family, but I don't see that the outsiders would be told, unless of course they were "informed."

hmmm... good point DC!

Well, I'm not buying some of the explanations. Again, it's common sense that someone of Michael's importance just doesn't travel halfway across the country to see someone else of importance without making arrangements in advance. As someone has pointed out, Ola met Mike to lead him to Roth, so arrangements apparently had been made. The question is when and what is the reason for the meeting? Michael wants to reassure Roth that nothing is to interfere with their plans. Is that the reason? But, isn't that need for reassurance prompted by the attempted hit? Why else meet unless they needed to firm up whatever joint plans they had and, therefore, had planned the meeting even before the first communion.

Also, about Michael driving. Assassins would expect Michael to be seated in the back seat. I just don't buy that his bodyguard needed to keep his hands free and looking around. In real life, books, movies, and TV I've never seen or heard of such a strategy.

I think the answer to that question is that, at that point, only hours were left before both of the protagonists had to act in order to be the survivor. It was becoming more and more obvious to both that the other knew the jig was up. So they were fencing. "Who had Pentangeli killed" was Michael's way of trying to distract Roth from the missing $2 million by putting him on the defensive. Roth's soliloquey was his way of ducking the question and putting the focus back on what he wanted--the $2 million--plus putting Michael in his place by parrying Michael's sanctimonious concern for Pentangeli by offering the killing of Moe Green as a tit-for-tat.

Part of the true genius of the Michael/Roth fandango is how these two peerless predators circle each other for the kill--and hang on, even to the last second, keeping each other alive to get what they want. By the time Roth is ready to take a nap, Michael is only hours away from Roth's planned assassination of him--yet Roth, who could have had Michael squashed like a bug the moment he stepped onto Cuban soil, is still dueling, fencing, hanging on for that $2 million. And Michael, who knows exactly when and how Roth plans to have him killed, and could have had his bodyguard whack Roth (and Ola) at any opportune time, is still holding up his end--still hanging on with Roth to see if he can pick up clues on who the traitor is in his family. And then the game goes into extra innings--the aborted assassination of Roth, his survival, Pentangeli's survival, the Senate hearings, Vincenzo's appearance...matchless drama!

Good assessment Turnbull. I think you're right about these two being peerless predators who know their capabilities and limitations. The background of the Castro insurgency (where have I heard that term before?) makes the whole thing even more unstable and unpredictable.

But there may be other possibilities. At that time some guests might still be there to know about the assassin or perhaps connie and her man stayed in the house who might leak the news.

I wanted to revisit this thread because I have some additional questions that I think could get interesting answers:

Michael was frantic to get Fredo with him on the plane out of Havana. We can understand why. At that point, all he knew was that Fredo betrayed him, but he didn't know who else might have been in on the plot besides Ola and Roth. And he had to return to Tahoe, where, possibly, Rocco, Neri--maybe even Tom--could have been co-conspirators. Michael had good reason to suspect everyone.
But, in the 48 hours or less that it took him to get from Havana to Vegas, his sense of urgency disappeared. Told by Tom that he thinks Fredo must be in NY, Michael simply tells Tom to "get word to Fredo..." I infer that Michael believed Tom knew where Fredo was and could contact him immediately. BUT: Notice he doesn't say, "Find him and bring him here immediately." In fact, his next interest in Fredo occurred after he found himself looking at five counts of perjury. Then he tells Tom, "I wanna talk to Fredo"--and Fredo appears tout suite. So:

1. Why did Michael lose his sense of urgency in grilling Fredo? The obvious answer is dramatic license--having Fredo appear in the boathouse before the second Senate hearing had far more impact than if he'd come to Tahoe right after Havana--and it made for one of the greatest scenes in the Trilogy. But I'm hoping people here will have other theories.
2. How did Fredo know "they got Pentangeli--I can tell you that," when Tom and Michael hadn't known until just before that scene? Reporters covering the hearing could have looked at the Family chart, inferred that Frankie could have been the secret witness from his position on the chart, and printed it. But, given the ultra-high level of security around Frankie, the Senate committee chair would never have publicly revealed the specific identity of the witness he was going to use against Michael. Fredo might have read that speculation in the newspapers, but his answer was definitive. Why? I can't believe that Roth would have told him.
3. Fredo tells Michael, "That Senate lawyer, Questadt, belongs to Roth." That seemed to come as a complete surprise to Micahael. How did Fredo know that? Again, I doubt that Roth would have told him any more than he would have told him Pentangeli survived--Fredo by that time was useless to Roth, and and Roth would never have trusted a dunce like Fredo with any such valuable info at any time.

Your thoughts?

All those questions and speculations are interesting. However, to me the most interesting statement was Tom's that he guessed Fredo got out of Cuba and he must be in NY. Either he knew he did or he knew that he didn't and where he was. There was no reason for Tom to guess.