Not really, Beth. Vito wasn't fooled by Csrlo and told Tom to make sure he never got anything important within the family. Sonny never gave him anything important and mocked him at the dinner table and was admonished by his mother not to interfere. He also beat the crap out of Carlo when he found her all bruised, and told Carlo he would kill him if he ever touched his sister again.

What Michael was saying that the little farce he played with his sister couldn't fool a Corleone, and it didn't. Sonny's only mistake was to lose his temper and go off half cocked once he learned Carlo had touched his sister again.

Interesting point! But I think Michael was just trying to get Carlo to cut the BS and make his confession, as if to say, "It's all over now." I doubt Michael was thinking about Sonny then.

GOOD POINT TB! To add... Michael wanted to put into Carlo's mind that Michael was offended by Carlo trying to fool him. Therefore, psychologically, Carlo believes that he must go ahead and confess (what Mike already knows) or his fate will be worse.

Sonny probably never let the thought of a set up enter his mind after he got a call from Connie. His temper took over all normal thought process and all he had on his mind was taking care of Carlo. It was more anger clouding Sonny's thinking than anything else. If he hadn't been hot tempered, he may have seen the set-up all along, had the novel allowed it.
Barzini knew Sonny would be a threat but never thought that Mike would be because up to the point where Mike comes back from Sicily, he's not involved in the business. Only Sonny and Fredo - " well to a point where Vito let him be involved because Fredo, well Fredo you know."
Mike probably knew that Vito did not want Carlo involved in the family business, I know its not in the movie, but like some of the plot dead spots we assume that certain things were filled in due to the movie progression. Mike knew at the meeting where we first see Neri as Mike's enforcer. When Tessio and Clemenza asking for their own families, when Mike told Carlo that Carlo would be his right hand man in Vegas, he already had Carlo lined up to get whacked. He was setting Carlo up, he already had his demise set up, just had to pick the right time.
He was still waiting to see who else would betray him. As Tom asked Mike right before this scene ended, Tom asked Mike - Why am I out, why does Neri report directly to you, he asks about Rocco building a secret regime. Mike asks him how he knows this. Tom says that some of his men are to good for their job, that they are getting more than the jobs worth.
Keep in mind, this is the first scene after Mike talks to Kay and Mike tells Kay that he has been back for more than a year. So there in theory, there is a year missing from the movie that Mike has been in charge of the family and been plotting and planning making decisions.
Mike had to let the pieces fall into place between this point and the move to Nevada. I believe then and I belive that now that Mike knew Clemenza would not betray the family.

I always got the impression, from that scene, that although Michael knew that Carlo had set up Sonny, he wasn't 100% sure. It was almost as though Michael wanted to HEAR Carlo say that he did it to be 100% sure that he was doing the right thing by killing Carlo. That his suspicions were now 100% confirmed.

Who else was in the room when Carlo confessed?

Weren't Neri, Rocco and Tom present?

Yes, I think so, and I think it was a way Michael could sheild himself for killing his brother in law....he had all those witnesses to the confession. I think this plays in the novel where Tom and Kay talk about Michael's business.

You've confused me here Don T. How would Carlo's confessing in front of the others shield Michael?

Shield is probably the wrong word. Michael knew there would be blowback from Connie, possibly Kay and possibly Mamma Corleone for killing a family member. While Connie and Kay openly brought it up, Mamma never would have, however with all of those people being privy to Carlo's confession they were all in a position to say that they knew for sure Carlo was the one who set Sonny up for death.

Hmmmm. I don't know about that Don T. I just cannot see Connie and Kay confronting Michael and then Michael having Neri and Rocco confirm to them that Carlo confessed to setting up Sonny.

Well, while I agree with you, that Micheal wanted to HEAR Carlo say that he did it, I don't believe it was "to be 100% sure that he was doing the right thing by killing Carlo". I believe his assessment was enough for that. I believe that Michael just wanted to feed his ego.

The novel says that the others in the room were "astonished" that Michael asked Carlo about his guilt when it was plain that Carlo was guilty. Puzo wrote that they thought this proved that Michael was "not yet the man his father was."
I had another view: Michael, by making Carlo confess and giving him a phony reason for hope, may simultaneously have been trying to prove a point to Tom, etc., that he could be quietly forceful (as well as ordering violence), and be avoiding a possibly messy scene in the Mall (where his wife sleeps, where his children play with their toys) by conning Carlo peacefully into the car to be garrotted.

Michael's conversation with Carlo is reminiscent of Vito's with Bonasera. In both cases, the outcome could have more easily been yes or no. But Vito was a master at busting chops in a polite seemingly benign way. Michael had that trait also. He didn't have to get Carlo to confess - his mind was already made up. But it was just part of his personaiity to do so. Just like in the novel when he puts Jules through his paces when Jules tryies to tell Michael that there could be no strings attached. Michael tells him that his string is friendship and Jules can refuse it if he wants to. That wasn't necessary, but Michael seems to revel in tormenting people to some extent.

Apt analogy in both cases. Contrast Jules' reaction (embarrassed, grateful) with Moe Green's ("f**k off"). And contrast the results.

By the same token, contrast Bonasera's reaction (acceptance) with Woltz's reaction to Vito's offer of friendship (rejection)--and the results.

I hate to resurrect this, after all the great responses. They all make sense, so I hate to beat a dead horse, but...

I was watching this again on Bravo last night, and a thought occurred to me. I remember watching Mystic River, and Sean Penn's character was trying to make the Tim Robbins character "admit what he did," and Penn would allow Robbins to live. Robbins, after seeing that "the truth" wasn't going to cut any mustard, admitted to what he didn't do, hoping for the chance to live.

Is it possible that Carlo was doing the same thing?

Exactly. The pre-arranged phone call is the key move for setting the hit in motion.

But the novel is also very clear about why Michael wanted an explicit confession from Carlo:

"Michael was still not confident of his right, still feared being unjust, still worried about the fraction of an uncertainty that only a confession by Carlo Rizzi could erase" (p. 436).

True, I have no doubt whatsoever that Santino's enemies would set up a hit this way. They were counting on Carlo to lose his temper and beat the crap out of Connie.

But isn't it possible that the organization of the hit was done without Carlo being willingly involved?

I doubt it. He admitted to his role, so it's really a moot point, anyway.

No, it's not at all possible. As was posted earlier, Carlo openly admits that Barzini approached him to set up the hit on Sonny:

Michael: Now who approached you, Tattaglia or Barzini?

Carlo: It was Barzini.

It doesn't get any clearer than that.

Even granting your theory that Carlo's confession may be a falsehood brought on in a desperate attempt to save his life I don't think it's possible that Carlo wasn't involved.

First of all, how would Barzini's people have such detailed knowledge of Carlo's domestic issues without Carlo providing that information?

Also, the way the hit was set up needed Carlo's involvment. I guess they could have had a random woman call and cancel a non-existant appointment with Carlo, but Carlo really was going out, and leaving right after he told Connie to make him dinner.

This behavior shows that Carlo was involved.

Yep i also agree that Carlo was involved.

Guess I'll make a weak Don, then. I'm a sucker for the pleading and swearing on my children comments.

See, when Vito Corleone says "I swear...on the souls of my grandchildren...that I will not be the one to break the peace we've made here today..."

See-now, one man says it, and you can believe him when he says it. Another man...pah.

I'll take your word on it. Or better yet, Puzo's. Then again, we all know that the books and the films are two different animals...STOP! *slaps self*

Carlo is guilty. Okay.

While I'll never believe that Carlo was not part of the plot, I do appreciate the logic of your reference to Vito's promise. However, to this I would point out the following: the Turk says to Michael in the car, after Michael says he doesn't want his father bothered anymore, that "I swear on my children he won't be." This was a lie, and in the restaurant the Turk admits as much: Michael says he wants a guarantee that there will be no more attempts on his father's life, and the Turks responds, "What guarantees can I give you, Mike?" (In the novel, if I remember correctly, Puzo writes that at that point Michael knew for sure that with this little meeting Sollozzo was just trying to buy time, and that he would try to make another attempt to kill Vito.)

Wow... yeah I remember that movie....

I gotta tell ya though... I thought that Robbins was just flippin' nuts at that point... he may have believed he didnt.. who knows....


as for Carlo... he could have easily said... "no one approached me... I didnt do it..."... INSTEAD... he looks around at the other guys in the room (as to say... ok here it comes).... it was Barzini.... "Hello Carlo"... there goes a perfectly good windshield

Mike scared Carlo into submitting.

I want to know HOW IN THE WORLD did Carlo think he was gonna live "there is a plane waiting for you"... "I bought you a ticket even though you set up Sonny to be killed"

I laugh my ass off when I see him get in the car and Clemenza says "hello carlo"

False hope, cunning on Michael's part, that's how.

"Come on. Don't be afraid, Carlo -- Come on, you think I'd make my sister a widow? I'm Godfather to your son, Carlo --No -- Carlo -- you're out of the Family business, that's your punishment. You're finished. I'm putting you on a plane to Vegas -- "
And he even goes as far as presenting a plane ticket to him.

Cool, cunning and calculative Michael at his best.

.

Yeah... I was almost complimenting Michael's cunning more than questioning it.... MC at his best