From the time Vito is shot the time he comes home from the hospital, Fredo is kept out of the loop as to what is going on with the mob war. He isnt in the room when Michael comes up with the plan to shoot Sollozzo and McCluskey, he isnt there while they are waiting around to find out where Sollozzo is taking Michael for dinner, and he isn't even there to say goodbye to Michael. Obviously both Sonny and Tom knew he was pretty worthless, but I wonder if even then they completely trusted him even then. By the time Michael gets back from Sicily, everyone knows that Moe Green slaps him around in public and Michael learns that he bangs cocktail waitresses two at a time. Michael also knows that Fredo had a tendency to take sides with paople against the family. All of this leads me to the question as to whether or not Michael should have kept a better eye on Fredo...even to the point of having him followed.
Had he done so the meeting with Johnny Ola in Beverly Hills, and Fredo's prior trip to Cuba and the Superman show would have been known to Michael, and it would have saved him a lot of trouble.
I am wondering if this was a lapse on Michael's part.

I wouldn't call it a lapse. It was his brother afterall. Yes, they all knew he wasn't the brightest. But I don't think they ever conceived of betrayal as a possibility.

I agree with alot of that but all of Michael's plotting prior to the McCluskey-Sollozzo murders came right after Vito was shot right in front of Fredo. I think his being left out may have had a great deal to do with the fact that he was "shell shocked" at the time.

Michael leaving him out of these very discussions did much to make Fredo become as resentful as he was by Part II.

I think there was something in the book about his being shell shocked at the time, but the discussion about killing Sollozzo came days after Vito was shot. He had already been in the hospital and had guards, and this plan was hatched the day after Michael was smacked by McCluskey.

Like I say, I think it was a combination of Fredo being the black sheep due to his simplicity AND the after shock of being with the Don when he was shot. You have to admit, his being constantly left out from that point on, went a long way in his relationship souring with Michael.

Which begs many other questions. Had Sonny lived, would he have been as impersonal with Fredo as Michael was ?

Would Sonny have included Fredo more in the family business ?

Would Fredo have betrayed Sonny as he did Michael ?

And the big one, would Sonny have ordered the death of Fredo ?

Heavy stuff PB....

1. Sonny would not have been as impersonal as Michael was. It wasn't Sonny's nature. I think Sonny would have left him in Vegas and put the lid on Moe slapping him around, and maybe even paid Moe extra to let Fredo do his thing. Michael was apalled at Fredo's conduct, Sonny would have thought it was funny.

2. I doubt he would have included Fredo more in the inner workings of the family business. I suspect he would have kept Tom on as consigliere, and together they would have moved Moe Green out peacefully or otherwise. Then I think he would have let Fredo think he was running the hotel, and Fredo would have just schmoozed with celebreties and gone on banging cocktail waitresses two at a time.

3. Because of 1&2 I doubt Fredo would have betrayed Sonny --- at least not knowingly. After all Fredo was Sonny's younger brother so he would never resent having been "passed over." He would have thought he was a Las Vegas big shot and would have been contented with that. Having made that assertion, however I would say that Freddie was very stupid, and if Tom or Sonny told him something or other in confidence, Freddie would have been one to blurt it out or have it tricked out of him.

4. If Fredo did something that caused an attempted hit on Sonny, I doubt that Sonny would have Fredo killed. Sonny would have had a tantrum, gone to Freddy and wrung his neck personally.

As DT said, Fredo, although he might have been left out of things by Sonny as well, wouldn't have been as resentful toward an older brother as he would by a younger one.

Also, no matter what Fredo did, Sonny never would have ordered a hit. He couldn't even bring himself to kill Carlo. Underneath all his bluster, Sonny was a bit of a marshmallow. He never could have ordered the death of his brother.

I agree 100% with all 4 of DT's points.

Sonny would have found Fredo's sexual proclivities hysterical. He might have tossed a bridesmaid and a couple of cocktail waitresses together, himself.

I also think that had they gotten through the five family war, Sonny and Tom would have eventually been a very formidable tandem as boss and consigliere. They really cared deeply for one another.

I think if Moe Green's slapping Fredo around while Sonny's alive, he gets away with it once, because he was a cash cow for the Corleones, but never again.

Then again, Moe didn't respect Michael, that's why he didn't have any reservations about hitting Fredo in the first place. If Sonny was alive, and the Don was at full strength, Moe probably keeps his hands to himself.

Sonny's passion allowed him to be compassionate. He couldn't have killed his own brother. Again, Fredo wouldn't have resented his older brother anyway, so it would never have happened.

Michael was a survivor, no doubt, but his biggest flaw as a boss was that he was deeply flawed as a human being.

Since someone brought up Moe Green, do you think while Fredo was under his wing that Moe, while he was still alive helped Fredo not to be not so dumb or did he put ideas in Fredo's head after he got mad at Michael for wanting to take his casino away? After all Moe was an ally for Roth.

Just a thought!

That's a great question Miggie. I think it's possible that Moe started to lay the groundwork, all those years before Cuba.

Great catch.

But while those discussions were going on, Fredo was under heavy sedation. In the book it is Michael who suggests that Fredo should be bought in and included in making their plans. But Sonny informs Michael that Fredo is in such shock that the doctor orderd that he, Fredo, have complete rest. And it is actually Hagen who suggests that Fredo be left out of everything that they were planning to do.




Very good question Mig. Turnbull and I had this same discussion a while back and we both agree that at the very least it probably was Moe Green who introduced Fredo to Johnny Ola.
Green probably was the one who put thoughts in Fredo's head. Not so much to make Fredo betray Michael, but probably more so to make Fredo feel inferior to Green,

"Your family doesn't care about you anyway, after all you were the next in line and you were passed over in favor of your younger brother!"


so that Green could order him around without any back talk and at the same time show others around him that he, Green, really was this important guy, so important that he could even order and slap around a Corleone and get away with it! Green probably put those thoughts in Fredo's head for his own benefit, to serve his own ego, and really nothing more.


Don Cardi

It wasn't Michael's decision to send Fredo to Vegas--the decision was made by Sonny, as acting head of the family. Michael had suggested, after Tom was released by Sollozzo, that Fredo be included in the decision making. Sonny said no, and he was seconded by Tom (who, in the novel, said, ..."leave him out of everything..."). What's more, Fredo's palship with Moe Green started while Michael was in Sicily. Moe may have given him ideas, but I agree that Since Sonny was Fredo's older brother, Fredo probably wouldn't have plotted against Sonny.

But when did he start plotting against Michael? At the time Michael visited him and Moe in Vegas, Fredo looked happy as a clam, carefree (and stupid) as ever. Yes, he took sides against Michael, but I don't think it was part of a plot--yet. But by the time of Anthony's party (some years later) Fredo was a lot less carefree: henpecked and humiliated by his wife, not included in the family business, running a whorehouse (and some Mickey Mouse nightclub). The seeds of resentment were there--big time. I have no reason to doubt that, whether or not Moe planted the idea of betraying Michael before Moe was killed, Fredo was good and ready for that overture from Johnny Ola in Beverly Hills.

I agree that it might have been a lapse on Michael's part, but at the same time it is possible that Michael felt that a betrayal by his brother would be very unlikely, thus he decided not to keep a closer eye on his brother. At the party in GFII at the beginning we clearly see that Michael is agitated with his brother's inability to "control" his wife and from GFI and GFII we see that Fredo has been swept up in the Vegas life. I gotta suspect that Michael must've been agitated with Fredo previous to GFII, but never thought that his own brother would betray him.

I agree with you TB that there could not have been an active plot against Michael until they knew he was going to take over the family business. Keep in mind, however that Michael returned from Sicily "a year, maybe more" before he even proposed to Kay. By the time Michael went to Vegas to tell Moe he was buying him out, Sonny had been dead a long time, everyone knew the Godfather was sick,and thought that the Corleones were being running out of New York by the other families and that they didn't have "that kind of muscle no more." As we have discussed elsewhere on the boards, they also surmised that Michael was the new head of the family, and they also underesitmated him. It would make sense therefore that Moe and Roth (through Moe) would already be working on Fredo to get him to further splinter the family. They would be telling him that he was passed over, that Michael was weak, and that the family was falling apart. When Moe slapped Fredo around, it obviously made Fredo feel what they were saying to him was true. As for Fredo being "happy as a clam" in Vegas, I respectfully disagree. I think he was as happy as that clam which took a stray bullet at Umberto's. I thought he was nervous and edgy. He snaps at Michael when he says Moe said to call "after the party started." He is making excuses to the hookers and the band that Mike dismissed "I don't know he's tired." When Micheal is showing Johnny the contracts Fredo says "Moe never said anything to me about selling... he loves the casino business." And when Michael makes the comment about Moe slapping him around he is overly protective of Moe, saying "Sure he flies off the handle but me and Moe are good friends..." as he is giving Moe a back massage and hoping Moe will say something other than he had to straighten him out. Then of course he takes sides against Michael on the buy out deal. I think Fredo was already having misgivings about Michael's strength and his judgment, and I think he was perfectly set up to betray him later on. For sure, Fredo realized how powerful Michael was when he killed everyone at the end of GF I, but it also solidified him as the one who got passed over, and was probably seen as a pawn in Hyman Roth's long term schene to avenge the death of Moe Green.

DonT,

All that you say makes a lot of sense and seems to fit into the scheme of things. But let's keep in mind that when FFC made the Godfather I movie, there was never even a thought about making GFII. So therefore there couldn't have been an attempt to lay the groundwork in GFI for the plot in GFII regarding Michael, Roth and Fredo.

What I do believe though is what I wrote in a previous post that Green probably was the one who put thoughts in Fredo's head. Not so much to make Fredo betray Michael, but probably more so to make Fredo feel inferior to Green, so that Green could order him around without any back talk and at the same time show others around him that he, Green, really was this important guy, so important that he could even order and slap around a Corleone and get away with it! In the context of Godfather I being a movie on it's own, Green probably put those thoughts in Fredo's head for his own benefit, to serve his own ego, and really nothing more.


Don Cardi

DC of course you are correct about FFC not knowing there would be a GFII, however if you look at those two movies as one piece of work the pieces all fit. I agree that Moe was just trying to show Fredo who swung the bigger ....um stick.... but still I think at that time everybody thought the Corleone family would collapse. Thats why Moe thought he could impress Michael by telling him "I talk to Barzini" and that he can make the deal with him and still keep the hotel. Bluntly he was telling mike the Corleones were in Roth's words...small potatoes.

No question about it. Moe Green would have never said what he did to Michael unless the word had been put out that the Corleones were weak. And being approached by Barzini even made Moe that much braver in his disrespect for the Corleones.

Now the question is, did Moe really talk to Barzini himself? Or did his best friend, Hyman Roth talk to Barzini?




Don Cardi

[quote=Don Cardi....
Now the question is, did Moe really talk to Barzini himself? Or did his best friend, Hyman Roth talk to Barzini?

Don Cardi [/quote]

The way Moe said "Tawk" makes me think he did in fact
"talk to Barzini." But Roth would have been involved.

Like this:

Green - Michael Corleone is coming to Las Vegas to try to move me out of the casino business.
Roth - The Corleones have been trying to move people out of their territories for years. Believe me, its in their blood.

Green - Barzini's people have contacted me and have told me to go firectly to him. They say I can make the deal and still keep my hotel. I just wanted you to know this because I know you and the Corleones go back a long way and I don't want there to be any trouble.

Roth - You're a wise and considerate young man. I only wish I could live long enough to see you gain even more control in this city you invented.

Green - Then you don't mind if I slap Fredo around and tell Michael to fuck off.

Roth - My business was with Vito Corleone. His kids are small potatoes.

they all figured Fredo was stupid-end of story.

Really? Is that what it was? WOW!

WHAT? Fredo stupid? Fredo was smaht. He could handle things. Not stupid like everyine says, he was SMAHT! ANd he wants respect. He was passed over by his kid brother. Did you ever think about THAT?

After Don Vito was shot down, Fredo was in shock and out of the picture until he recouped. If you remember, Fredo had as much a hand in the Family Business as Santino and even Tom - Fredo was in the initial meeting at Genco with Sollozzo, along with the Caporegimes Clemenza and Tessio, Santino, Vito, and Tom. You didn't see Michael there.

Up until the time of Vito's shooting, Fredo was right there.

Yes, Fredo was in the Sollozzo meeting and Michael wasn't. But there's no evidence that Fredo "had as much a hand in the Family business as Santino or even Tom." If you remember, Fredo wasn't in the meeting that Vito had with Sonny and Tom re. Sollozzo after Tom came back from his meeting with Woltz. Nor was Fredo in any of the meetings that Vito had during Connie's wedding party.

Fredo's attendance at the Sollazzo meeting is more about a show of strength than it is about Fredo's actual input or involvement with any business decision. The presence of Fredo and the caporegimes, Tessio and that fat Clemenza, are meant as a silent but very visible show of support for Vito's decision regardless if they agree with his decision or not. Vito spoke FOR EVERYONE (until Sonny speaks out-of-turn), and Sollazzo should have left that meeting with the knowledge that the entire family was solidly behind the Don's decision to decline Sollazzo's offer to participate in the drug trade.

It doesn't matter what Fredo's actual role was in the family at that moment; Fredo is perceived as a capo and that meeting is required attendance for him if only to create the impression that EVERYONE is opposed to a partnership with Sollazzo. Fredo might have been conspicuous by his absence for that meeting.

On the other hand, would Fredo have been at that meeting if Vito had said yes to Sollazzo's offer? In my opinion, probably not. He would have been sent on some important errand while Vito and the rest of the family discussed the intimate details of the deal.

tony b.

I think we also need to consider that Fredo was in the meeting for instructional purposes in the hope that finally he might absorb some of what it takes to be a real part of Vito's crime family.

Yeah. Plus how would he feel if he knew right then and there that his brother and NOT him was going to take care of the people who shot his father as he fumbled and bumbled the gun.



Sonny never really interacted with Fredo. Sonny would have been closer with Fredo I believe.



More of the same... non important stuff I believe.




This is tricky... Sonny was oldest and WAS SUPPOSED to be DON. Fredo could have lived with that.... BUT when Sonny dies... Fredo was next in line "I am your older brother and I was skipped over".... that therein lies the "Fredo problem"... so No... Fredo wouldnt betray Sonny IMO



I dont think it ever comes down to betrayal of Sonny because Fredo looked at Sonny as Don as the right thing. (per my above answer)... but if I had to answer... No way Sonny kills Fredo... he detaches from him at worst