Don T, I recently posted over in another topic about what JJ refers to as the "kid Gloves" policy. And I believe that both you and I have had these exact discussions in the past. But I'll give you an example once again anyway.

For example telling soldiers that are fighting on the front lines in a war that they are NOT allowed to fire back at those trying to kill them if those enemies are shooting from within a Mosque, is fighting a war with "kid gloves."

That's just one example of fighting with kid gloves to appease the naysayers and human rights watchers.

Don't believe what I just wrote about that policy? Well then I suggest that you take an hour or two out of your day and seek out a soldier who has been over there and ask him if what I just posted is true or not. You'll be very surprised at what he tells you our soldiers are restricted from doing in that war over there. Makes me want to throw up.


Don Cardi

DC:

I've never read the ROE in Iraq, but I have read summaries of them. Nowhere have I found any words that state that one cannot fire on or actually invade a mosque. In fact, I remember from the news a Marine in 2005 that was investigated for killing an Iraqi inside of a mosque. Your info is anecdotal. Having served in Vietnam I know that ROE as stated is frequently departed from in the field. Those doing so are quite infrequently investigated let alone prosecuted.

US military command makes staregic and tactical decisions based on civilian political objectives which is the way it is supposed to be.

Olivant, with all due respect, it is a fact. I've been involved with Homes For Heroes which is an organization that raises money to build homes for returning vets who've been in the war. EVERYONE of them that I've spoken with have told us that they've been fired upon and attacked from terrorists hiding within the Mosques and they were ordered NOT to fire back at those Mosques.


My best friend's nephew ( who he raised like a son ) was in Iraq. He was part of the group that found and captured Saddam. When he came home, my friend threw a welcome home dinner for him. He told us stories about how restricted they are when it comes to returning fire on places like Mosques because they are deemed sacred. Yet the enemy has no qualms about firing upon them from inside that sacred Mosque.

It is also a fact that about 2 or 3 years ago Zarqawi took refuge inside of a Mosque and our military knew it and had the chance to go in and kill him, but they could not.

I believe that it has something to do with our not wanting to destroy what is sacred to the Iraqi people.



Don Cardi

Well, ROE are subject to interpretation by the commander on the spot in a tactical situation. It's their decision. They're allowed that. My point is that the ROE are not having a "strategic" effect upon our efforts in Iraq. They didn't in Vietnam.

How do you know this?


Don Cardi

That's true, and President Bush is placing a large burden on history to decide upon his fate as a former president.

It seemed though, with Korea, we went to ward the communists out of the south we pushed them up to the 38th and left (after fluctuation and resistance from the communists and the Chinese). With Iraq, it's a much more complex task we're struggling to achieve. You can ask many different sources what we are doing in Iraq, and you may get different answers, but there was only one Korea, and there was only one Harry Truman. We originally invaded Iraq in search of WMD's, and now we're there to liberate them, but you've got a civil war, several trillions later, we're still in there, but nothing's working. We say that if we just pull out now, it will break out into mass chaos and terrorists will seek to end us, but if we stick around, it may happen. We're in a shit situation.

Will we be able to install a republic that can control the violent groups which currently reside there? I don't know. Regardless of whether or not I agree with the action this administration has taken, I hope they can get us out of it, or that we can at least elect someone in 2008 who has some idea.

I can't help you out of your wet paper bag. Sorry.

Try aiming for the broad side of a barn for your next trick.

Warmest Regards,
Double-J

Because a strategic effect would act upon the enemy's ability to make war. ROE are intended to apply in a tactical situation.

Olivant, I sincerely appreciate and respect the point that you are trying to make here. However YOU are the one who brought up ROE. It was you who 'categorized' that our soldiers not being able to fire upon the Mosques as ROE.

Call it what you want or categorize it how you will, but the bottom line here is that if you've ever spoken to the soldiers who have fought over there, and I am not talking about one or two, you would know that they have been ordered NOT to fire upon any Mosques even if enemy fire is originating from that Mosque. These are their words, not something that I've made up.

And I have to take what many of these soldiers have spoken about, when it comes to their being ordered NOT to fire upon these Mosques that the enemy is really using as strongholds, as gospel. I mean after all these guys and gals are the ones in the trenches fighting on the front lines.



You just can't fight a war like that.

I just love the double talk by these politicians that claim to support the troops, but in the same breath they are now voting to defund them. Hypocrites. Not ONE of them has offered some kind of plan except to pull out, PERIOD.

That's not a plan.

Our soldiers are asking for more help, and the Hillarys, the Kennedys, the Boxers, the Kerrys and the Pelosis of this country are telling them "F**K YOU!"

Nice what happened in Washington this weekend at the ANTI-WAR protest. Really nice that a soldier who lost his leg in Iraq was spit on by someone claiming to be against war and violence. Really nice that these peace touting people who constantly quote the law and their rights decided to spray paint our nation's capitol. Such upstanding people who claim to love our country and support our soldiers.


Don Cardi

"The Battle of Algiers" (1965)

Great movie, great scene.

DJ, your thoughts on the Obama-Fox News bullshit?

Why be depressed and watch the news? I just look outside for my weather forecast.

Come on, who you think you are in avoiding the question, Hillary Clinton?!?

If soldiers have been instructed not to fire on a mosque, I'll bet my bottom dollar that it has been at the instruction of tactical unit commander. I am not aware of any general orders that constitute part of ROE that soldiers are not to fire upon a mosque. In Vietnam our ROE allowed us to return fire coming from any target. On only one occassion was I directed by a unit commander to avoid firing such and that was a small temple.

Again, local tactics are not going to affect the strategic outcome of a war.

Soldiers serve this Nation's foreign policy; the foreign policy does not serve the soldiers. They volunteered; I volunteered. I knew what I was getting into. I assume they knew also. Civilian control and disposition of the US military is a principle of this Republic.

If your enemy is holed up in a place that either the field commanders or the general have deemed off limits for attack, and they blast the shit out of your troops from within that off limits place, and take refuge there, and store their weapons there, and put snipers on the roofs there who pick off your soldiers one after the other or force your troops to retreat because they are not allowed to fire back, you're going to tell me that tactics like that are NOT going to affect the strategic outcome of the war?

See, I may not be educated, experienced or trained in military strategies and tactics, but street smarts and common sense tells me that if your enemy is killing your soldiers one after the other because he is holed up in a place where he can fire upon you, but you cannot fire back, you cannot win the fight. Allowing your enemy to strategically base their position in a place where they can kill you from, but where you cannot even fire back at them, is a recipe for disaster as far as I'm concerned. You're doomed to fail when you have ridiculous, rules, strategies or whatever you choose to call them, like that when you are fighting a war.

Especially when fighting a war where the enemy has absolutely no respect or cares about who or what they blow up or kill.

If the enemy does not respect it's own supposed Holy place of worship, then why the hell should we?

Don Cardi

DC you are assuming the only place from which they are attacking us are mosques. That is not the case. I am sure some mosques are used, but the fact is they are stashing ammunition all over the place...probably in their own basements. The real problem isnt that we have a policy against going into mosques, the problem is that we can no longer identify "the enemy." I read someplace that the Malaki government wants us out. You know what? DISCLAIMER: I am only being half serious here.. We should say "fine." If they all want to kill each other for the next 20 years let 'em do it ...."they're animals anyway let them lose their souls."

We keep going around and around on this. If you are obtaining ROE info from former soldiers who fought in Iraq, then the info they are giving you is either mistaken, incidental, or they are lying. I defy anyone to produce a genral order that precludes attacks upon mosques when those mosques are used as a fire base. The right of self-defense forms the basis of US military ROE. Ask those soldiers you refered to to quote the general order that precluded them from attacking a mosque. If they're unit commanders precluded such a tactical response, they made it for a good reason, which, if you were to confront them about it, they would tell you the reason.

I think you overestimate the value of your common semse. The strategic component of the war in Iraq addresses how the weapons and personnel got into the Mosque, not what disposition was made of them once they were there. Yes, lack of education, experience, and training in military staregies counts for a whole lot when one is critiqing operations in a military theater.

For example, one needs to know the diffeence between counter-attack and fire suppression; between fire for effect and for collateral damage; between a 5,56 and a 7.62 caliber shell and their effects. There's alot more to it than on TV.

What relevance does this have to the fact that our troops are being fired upon from areas such as a mosque (as Don Cardi pointed out) and are not given the opportunity to fire back. Your disscussing irrelevant information when the point remains that if you are ordered to hold fire, you can't win a war, weather your intentions are to shoot for collateral damage or for effect.

Madonne! Read the post again and this time read the whole post!

I read the post, why don't you stop dodging the discussion at hand and back up your claim. I'll wait....

Olivant and NYC, sitting UNDEr a TREE, K-I-S-S-I-N-G!

Wow I haven't heard that since kindergarden. WHat is it like being in the same grade as your kids?

Ok, I see where your mentality is on this. I guess that the numerous amount of soldiers that I've worked with and have come in contact with over the last couple of years, on many different occassions, are all lying and colluding on this claim.





You know Olivant, you surprise me by making remarks like that. I always thought more of you. But in truth, you may be right, because common sense was telling me to listen to what you had to say because you said that you served in vietnam. So valuing my common sense I did try lsitening to what you had to say. But I guess that I actually did overestimate my common sense.





Well, the 7.62 cal shell was used in the M14 which was replaced by the M16 which is the newer standard weapon. The 5.56 cal has a much lower recoil and is no longer the standard caliber for U.S. forces on the battlefield because modern and updated body armor will not be penetrated by the 5.56 therefore making it uneffective in today's war. The original 7.62 has been upgraded and will out perform both the original 7.62 and the 5.56, because of it's ability to lethaly penetrate body armor, and also because of it's ability to perform from long range.

TV? No, I don't know these things from TV. I do learn about them from reading, working with and talking with real live soldiers who have been on the battlefields of Iraq and experienced much of what I have tried explaining to you, first hand.

You know it's kind of ironic that when someone from the left critiques the war itself and calls it a failure, and criticizes the soldiers who are fighting there, they are portrayed as excersizing their freedom of speech, excersizing their rights under the constitution. But when someone like myself questions something that has been told to him by soldiers returning from the battlefield, I am accused of not being educated because of the concerns that I have for our troops and the way that they are made to fight the war. Double standards.


With all due respect Olivant, (and I sincerely respect you for serving our country in Vietnam) I don't doubt your knowledge when it comes to military issues. Obviously you would know more than the average civilian would. But that does not make you more superior than anyone else here who has an opinion on things. Your being an veteran does gives you the right to belittle someone just because they have not served in the military. You should be looking to educate others from your experience instead of calling the returning vets liars or accusing people of being uneducated.


Don Cardi

Burn!

fight me

Why? I enjoyed your post.

Regards,
Double-J

im only joking with u

You mean the way I talk? What? Funny how? What's funny about it? He's a big boy. He knows what he said. Funny, how? Let me understand this. But I'm funny how? Funny like a clown? I amuse you? I'm here to fucking amuse you? What do you mean, funny? How am I funny? I don't know. You said it. You said I'm funny. How am I funny? What the fuck is so funny about me?



Tell me what's funny.

Ball Breaker

I don't know, whats it like to be fucked for life like your kids?

Besides, I'm adding as much to the conversation as you and your closet lover are.

ZERO!