In discussion of the whole assassination attempt on Vito, it is so often said that the cause of this is, inherently, Sonny's outburst during the meeting. Although I admit to my adoration of Sonny Corleone, I must say that, although this may have been a factor, I don't believe it to be a large one; or even very significant for that matter. Given that Sonny keeps his mouth shut during the meeting, can anyone honestly say that Sollozo would've just walked away with his tail between his legs??? I believe we all know the Virgil Sollozo character a little too well for that assessment. So, to all who take this stand on Sonny's meeting interjection, please enlighten me with your rationale for this, as I'm totally bewildered. Let's not blame everything on the "hot-headed scapegoat"

Good point F.W. I think you are correct in saying that Sollozzo would have tried to assassinate Vito whether or not Sonny had made his faux pas, however this was in indication of a weakness in the Corleone family that Sollozzzo could have used to get permission from Barzini to take a whack at Vito. Sollozzo also sensed that with Vito out of the way the Corleones would fall in line. When he kidnaps Hagen he not only says Sonny was "hot" for his idea but also that Hagen "knew it was the right thing to do."

Ah Don T... while I do agree with you that this may have shown some weaknesses, but, as I've alluded to before, this is about the almighty dollar and when Vito denied, Sollozzo's pockets were hurt. He did not want that, so his M.O. was to do whatever he had to do, to get this... he didn't care who it was that had to go... all he knew was that at that instance, Vito had to go... then Sonny (if he disagreed)... then Mike (if he disagreed)... Fredo... Clemenza... etc. Sollozzo was quite ambitious, and also quite bright, I might add.

Frank, you make a very good point here. There is no question that once Vito refused Sollozzo's offer, it was going to be war. However, Sonny's outburst provided an opening for Sollozzo, made his planning that much easier. As our friend Turnbull always says, Sonny's outburst was the "ch*nk in the Corleone Armor."

Had Sonny kept his mouth shut, it would have made things much more difficult for Sollozzo and company because they would not have known if ANYONE from the Corleone regime was at all interested in Sollozzo's offer. And not having the slightest hint IF anyone from the Corleone side was interested in his deal, it may have been much more difficult for Sollozzo to get the ok to make a hit on Vito. Sonny's outburst indirectly gave Sollozzo the ammunition he needed to get the ok to make the hit on Vito. And keep in mind what I mentioned over in another thread; Sollozzo did NOT know that with Vito out of the picture, the political connections that Sollozzo and company were looking for would have been gone. Sollozzo probably assumed that Sonny and Tom, being the #2 and # 3 guys under Vito, would still retain the political connections needed for this deal.

So that's probably why Sollozzo figured that with Vito, the one against the deal, out of the way, Sonny, who was "hot for his deal" would sooner or later have calmed down and would have to make a deal with him, and provide him with the politcal clout that he needed.

Actually it 's all Fredo's fault.

EDIT : Don Malta, does the word ch*nk, used in this context, have to be censored? What is this board coming to? CENSORSHIP on the BB!




Don Cardi

So, if Sollozzo would have tried to kill Vito regardless of Sonny's malaprop, then he must have figured he could do without Vito's political and legal connections. Given everything they knew about Sonny, with Vito murdered, would Sonny have just said "oh well,I'll miss Pop, but business is business"?

oh NO!!! no way Sonny would do that. But I believe DC and DTs's points are that Sollozo was really ignorant to the state of the Corleone family after the assassination of Vito.

I don't agree. As I posted above, Sollozzo had no way of knowing that Sonny and Tom did NOT have the political connections.

Sollozzo must have assumed that Sonny and Tom, being Vito's # 2 and # 3 men, would retain those political connections even with Vito out of the way.

As for Sonny laying down? No, of course not. At least not right away. There would be war regardless of Vito surviving the hit or not. However war could only last so long. As Tom tells Sonny

"If we lose the old man -- we lose our political contacts and half our strength. The other New York Families might wind up supporting Sollozzo just to avoid a long -- destructive war.
If your father dies, you make the deal, Sonny."

and eventually Sonny would have had to make the deal for the exact reasons that Tom stated. And Sonny knew that eventually he would have had to make a deal because his reaction to Tom's advice was not one of outrage, but a half hearted response that meant deep down, Sonny knew that Tom was right.


Don Cardi

Okay, but what about Sollozzo's consideration of Vito's opinion that his contacts wouldn't be friendly very long if they knew his business was drugs? Did Sollozzo even consider that? And what if Sonny couldn't follow up on Vito's connections if Vito died? And one more. Vito recovers and does what? Still resists his involvement in the drug business?; wages war? decides to exact a bigger share in the business due to the botched murder attempt?

One thing I don't understand about the whole political connections is why wouldn't they keep the connections with Vito gone? Sollozzo obviously assumed they would, so one would think connections transferring from Don to Don is somewhat standard protocol. I know the novel states that the title of Don is by no means hereditary, but it also states that Vito is grooming Sonny in the hopes that he proves worthy enough to claim the title. Wouldn't Vito have introduced Sonny to some of these connections as his son and possible successor? When Vito died, did he just expect his successor to start from scratch and build up the empire from the ground again?

Vito was such a meticulous and prepared individual, I doubt he would have allowed such a situation to occur. I know he was slipping, as Sollozzo alluded to, but he would have had things set up to keep his family provided for in the event of his death long before the events we see in the movie.

The politicians who did favors for Vito either did so out of respect and gratitude or for money. It's possible some might not have transferred that respect to Sonny, but most probably would have, as long as Sonny kept the money coming. After a couple of months of Sonny running things, they may have distanced themselves as they saw what a bad Don Sonny turned out to be, but I don't see why they wouldn't stay with the Corleones at the time of Vito's hit.

Tom's line seems out of place. If, for whatever reason, the Corleones would lose political protection without Vito, why would they lose half and not all of it. If the politicians are loyal only to Vito, then they're screwed. If they're loyal to the Corleones, then they should transfer that loyalty to the Corleones.

oh, well, it was made clear (to me, anyway) that these connections were personal connections of Vito Corleone. While Vito may have, very well, introduced Sonny, who's to say that these connections wanted to maintain their current, illegal and trecherous, relationship with some one other than the man whom they have this bond with??? It seems very clear to me that this is feasible, even probable, to be the case. Tom was right on with this statement. When this statement was made by Tom, did ANYONE object??? NO. That was the whole purpose of this statement to be made... so that we, the audience, would not be making the same ignorant assumption as Sollozzo was making. So, the argument that Tom was just (pardon my expression) talking out of his a$$ is kinda rediculous to me.

Point well taken. It still doesn't make sense to me why these politicians would only want Vito's money, as opposed to Sonny's money, but then why would half the Corleone's political muscle disappear, while half would be there for Sonny? That's what I don't understand about Tom's line.

It is indeed hard to think of Sollozzo just going away with his tail twixt his legs if Sonny had sat silent. But I also believe that Sonny's greed for the deal may have been the convincer he used to get Barzini and Tattaglia to go along with and support his attempted assassination of Vito. Without the ch*nk in Vito's armor, the other two Dons might have discouraged him from acting--"wait and see," they'd probably advise. Then Sollozzo'd be twixt the rock and hard place.
Tom was probably exaggerating when he said that if Vito died, the family would lose all their political contacts. Crooked politicians are mostly loyal to money, not to individuals. Some would have bolted the Corleones if Vito died (probably because they didn't know Sonny or afraid of his rashness). Others had to eat and put kids through college.
But, with Vito gone, they might have been up for grabs by all. That may be why Tom urged Sonny to make the deal--with cash coming in from drugs, the Corleones would be able to maintain a monetary bond on the politicians, instead of the former Vito bond. As Tom told Vito earlier, "...with the money they earn from drugs, they can buy more police and political protection than we have..."

This is a response to Don Roberto's question in another thread.

I think Sollozzo said the Tattaglias would guarantee the million to show Vito that they were solidly behind him and that Vito's refusal would not only be an insult to Sollozzo but also to the Tattaglias.

Well, if it were just a matter of money that secured political and legal cooperation, then I am sure that Barzini, Tattaglia, Cuneo, et al had plenty of money to secure that cooperation. So, obviously, Vito's relationships had more than a financial aspect to them, right.

Well, yes and no. Crooked politicians have to know that the people bribing them aren't going to rat them out. I doubt seriously that one of us could approach a known crooked politician and bribe him. There would have to be some kind of vetting, and of course "buffers." Even Geary told Michael he didnt want to deal with him directly (with his oily hair and shiny silk suits and dishonest ways) but through the "good man" Turnbull.

I think some corrput judge or Jew congressman not in our district knew that Vito Corleone would not only take care of them financially, but that he would also be a "friend" ready to do a favor in return for a favor. I doubt Sonny understood this subtle difference, and his ascendency to the top level combined with a newly minted drug dealing operation may have scared some of them off.

Don Roberto, you also asked for logistics:
I doubt that Sollozzo would try to bluff Vito by claiming that the Tattaglias would guarantee his investment if they hadn't agreed--it'd be too easy for Tom or Vito to uncover. Then the deal would not only die, but probably Sollozzo, too.

I imagine that if Vito had gone for the deal, Tom would have paid a visit to his counterpart in Tattaglia's organization to confirm that if the deal collapsed, or Sollozzo was arrested, imprisoned, deported or died before Vito started seeing money, the Tattaglias would remit Vito's million. This could have made for a very complex negotiation, with many subplots if GF had gone that way.

Good point. Also, as the novel expresses so well, Vito was able to marshall voters for politicians and perform other electoral services, legal or not.

Tom - Luigi, you are the consigliere to the Tattaglias, and I'm sure you know why I'm here.

Luigi - Yes, my good friend, Tom. You are here because the Turk was arrested for drug dealing and you are seeking to collect on our guarantee of the million dollars.

Tom - (raising his voice) The Turk was arrested six months ago, and Don Vito didn't think it was something I would have to request. He is upset that the money was not just paid, as a matter of honor.

Luigi - Tom, you know me, and you know the Tattaglia family...when have we ever broken our word?

Tom - That's not the point. Vito has authorized me to collect the million without interest as a sign of respect, but it must be paid by Friday.

Luigi - I'm not sure if....

Tom (interrupting) - I'll make this simple. Don Vito never liked the idea in the first place. He knew about Sollozzo's dealings in Sicily and the two terms he served before he came to New York. Your family was careless in choosing him and he was evenmore careless getting caught the way he did.

Luigi - The Tattaglias are disappointed that Sollozzo's motion to dismiss the charges was denied by the judge.

Tom - We warned you that the judges and politicians would run for cover, and your guarantee came with no strings.

Luigi - The Tattglias, with all due respect, need to consider their options before paying you.

Tom - Word on the street is business is down, that some of your women have left town and some of your houses aren't being maintained. We think you have neglected prostitution because you anticipated easy money from drugs.

Luigi - Salut Mr. Hagen.

Tom - Friday.

Luigi - We need to make arrangements to pay. It is more difficult than you know.

Tom - Then it is because you need to get the word from someone else. Someone like Barzini. Am I right?

Luigi - The Tattaglias guaranteed your money, and you guaranteed to use those judges you had in your pocket. Why is your guarantee less important than ours?

Tom - It is very clear to me now. Your boss is a pimp. Until this day I did not know it was Barzini all along. I will reoprt this to my don. The money is due Friday.

lol... good subplot DonT.