All I'm saying is that who could really define the true meaning of a certain holiday except for God?

You are welcome to join the feast of Fetr at our house. At the same time, I wouldn't be judging you, and tell you that you are not celebrating the true meaning of Fetr, because you may be doing something better according to the meaning of this feast, which none of us knows for sure. You might as well be better in the eyes of Allah/God than any Muslim who has been fasting the entire month.

In short, I don't get to define the true meaning of a holiday, nor do I get to say who celebrates it according to its true meaning and who does not.

A little story that we've been told in the school books as the example of such cases, involves Moses and a shepherd. Moses comes across a shepherd who is worshiping God in the most primitive form, almost as if God is a sheep. Moses instructs the shepherd for the right way that one should pray to God. Later God tell Moses that he made one of his favorite people self-conscious, so he does not pray as well as he used to do, and he loved the way he used to pray. I've no idea if this story has been mentioned in Torah or not, but true or false, there is such a deep meaning to it. And that's just something to remember when we all judge everybody else's way of praying/celebrating. Even Moses doesn't get to tell you how to pray, and Jesus tells you Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Nobody is JUDGING. Nobody is going to call the Holiday Police. As a Christian, it is MY sacred belief that I am celebrating the birth of Christ the Savior, God's only Son, on Christmas Day. It is also MY belief that a non-Christian cannot truly celebrate the meaning of Christmas. Does that mean that I would JUDGE anyone who does? No. Does that mean that I would disrespect anyone who does? No. Does that mean that if I saw a tree and lights at a non-Christian's home that I would feel compelled to tear them down, or demand that they do? No. If you decided that you want to celebrate Christmas by putting on a red blinking nose and dancing naked to Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer, have a ball.

But, IMO, you are not celebrating the true meaning of Christmas.

By calling what you do the true way, and therefore any other way the wrong way you're simply judging others' way of celebrating Christmas. It is as simple as that.

Is Christ the Savior of any other religion? just curious.

I celebrate the season but, I don't celebrate it as being Christ's birth. Imo I don't believe he was born on December 25th. If Af's celebrates the season the way she was brought up in her culture then she is celebrating the true meaning for her.

Af's,

In your culture do you exchange gifts with family and friends?

Shi'a Muslims believe that he'll come along with the Savior promised to them when the world enters its darkest era. I've no idea about any other sect or religion.

No, gift exchanging is not part of our culture. Just commemorating his birth, as miracle of God and messenger of love and peace. But then if you ask about the family in the US, since my aunt is Christian, we do the whole thing, Christmas tree, gift exchanging, etc.

As for Christians here, they actually celebrate on Jan 6, because of the difference between Julian and Gregorian calendar. So it depends who I'm celebrating with.

Of course to ME it is the true way. That's what faith is. And Mig, you raise an interesting point. I don't know when Jesus was actually born, but I believe that Christmas is the celebration of His birth, so that's when I celebrate it.

afs - I'll gladly play "Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer" if you supply the rest.

Muslim's don't exchange gifts on Eid al-Fetr?



Those who are practicing believers and who have been taught from God what that holy day represents.

Christmas represents that Birth of the Messiah, Christ the Saviour, and if you don't believe that Christmas represents those things, than you cannot really celebrate the true meaning of Christmas.


Don Cardi

SC the red nose consigliere, had a very shiney nose,
And if you ever saw him, you would even say it glows,
All of the BB members, Used to laugh and call him names,
Irish never let poor SC, play in any BB games.

Then one foggy Christmas eve, Malta came to say,
SC with your nose so bright, won't you mod the boards tonight.

Then how the members loved him, and they shouted out with glee,
SC the red nose Consigliere, you're the man of the BB!




Don Cardi

In the words of Jim Carrey "Have a very Christ-y Christ-y good time" this Chrismas!

Take a bow Don Cardi

Very well done.

[quote=afsaneh77
All I'm saying is that who could really define the true meaning of a certain holiday except for God?

[/quote]

I appreciate the points you have all been making. From the running discourse, I believe that Christmas means means more to you, afsaneh, than it does for most non-Christians. I also believe that SB's heart is touched by Christmas in a very deep way. While you both celebrate, I'm sure the impact of the season consumes you in different pleasant ways.

As for the attempts to define the true meaning of the holiday, Christmas- or any holiday- wasn't created by God, but by men and women. Certainly, I beleve that love and adoration for Christ motivated Christians to honor His advent. The arrival of the Christ child was deemed appropriate for celebration many years after His death and what I believe was His resurrection.

That said, it is a wonderful world when we can all celebrate each others' holidays. I believe that in addition to the spiritual spirit of Christmas, which fascinates me as much now as it did when I was a kid, Christmas has also developed a secular spirit of goodwill and festive cheer. I am ashamed to say that my knowledge of Muslim holy days is basic. I should be more well rounded.

Afsaneh, can you give us a little picture of how Christmas is celebrated by Christians in Iran? I know you join the festivities, but is it common for non-Christians there to celebrate on some level? Just wondering.

SB, I gave this a lot of thought. I still disagree with you. I think although we might call the destination different names, and be on different routes, but we all can be led to the same thing. In this way of thinking, different cultures and religions can live peacefully together. I also believe there is not a single true way to reach the destination. I think there are as many ways as the number of human beings for worshiping/celebrating and reaching out to what we feel we've lost and we all are in search for it. My faith, that I confess has not always been in a firm state, is based on the destination, not on a specific route. It is based on worshiping what we all tend to call God although we might have different perceptions of him. But of course, although I voice my disagreement with your way of thinking, I respect your views.

SC, OMG! Okay, I'll celebrate with you. Sounds like fun.

DC, I celebrate the birth of Messiah, the miracle of God, the sign of God on earth and the promised savior. I can and I do. I don't care what you think about the meaning of my celebration, or if you approve of it or if you don't, since I don't think a holiday belongs to any specific person or group and all can have their own share of it.

As for your other question, we don't exchange gifts on any religious holiday. On Fetr, we help poor by donating some gifts, but nothing is being exchanged in the family. In Iran, the secular holiday of New Year is being observed exactly on the moment of beginning of spring, and in that holiday youngsters receive gifts from the elders of the family.


Klydon,

I agree with you. Even the most secular forms of celebration of Christmas have its share of good will.

As for how Christians celebrate in Iran, some have mixed Eastern and Western traditions, but for the most part here is how it goes:

They keep "Little Fast" from eating animal products, beginning on December 1st. Then they break the fast on Christmas day (Jan 6), by usually a dinner of chicken or turkey. Exchanging gifts are not customary, but some have adapted this tradition from West. Children receive new cloths and families and friends pay each other visits. Lately you see people dressed as "Papa Noel" (Father Christmas) and decorated pine trees, but these all has been adapted from Christians of Western culture. Christians in Iran call this celebration "Eida Sura" or small holiday. "Eida Gura" or big holiday is referred to Easter and they keep the "Big Fast" before that holiday.

As for Muslims, a dinner with family and a commemoration of birth of Messiah is usually observed.

It's not. It's an Italian tradition thing. But it's good stuff!


Don Cardi

Christmas : Celebrating the birth Of Jesus (which is the greek name for Messiah) Christ ( which is the greek word meaning "the annointed one").

Messiah : The redeemer sent by God, the saviour.


How can you clebrate the birth of the Messiah when your religion teaches that your Messiah has not even come yet and that Jesus Christ is NOT the Messiah?

Christians believe that the GIFT that was given to us by GOD was our Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ. Christians believe that he was the miracle given to us by God.


As I've said in several other posts, it's not that I don't approve of your partaking in the celebration of Christmas, (not that you or anyone else needs my apporoval) or celebrating it they way that you want to. What troubles me is that you claim to celebrate Christmas because of it's religious significance "DC I celebrate the birth of Messiah." when you cannot celebrate the religious significance of Christmas because you are of Muslim teachings who has "doubts that Jesus was god," and you look upon him as being just one of the "greatest prophets."

Again, you can celebrate it, as it is your right to celebrate anything or any holy day that YOU want to. I am not disputing that aspect with you.

But my point is that you are a Muslim who has been brought up with Muslim beliefs, so therefore you cannot celebrate Christmas with the same spiritual meaning, or for the same spiritual reasons that a Christian celebrates it. I mean techinically you can, anyone can, but you really don't because you are a Muslim, and it is not what the Muslim faith teaches you or believes in.


Don Cardi

I ask you DC, where in Islamic beliefs there's anything against the account of coming of Messiah? Actually, that's the exact name Jesus is being called in Quran, and what we call him: Masih. He was sent by God to redeem the people of Israel. The account of his birth is in fact in Quran, as how he was born form virgin Mary and how he talked in the cradle, cured sick and brought dead back to life. However, it is also pointed out that when God ascended Jesus to Heaven, asked him why he told people he was God, and he said that he has not done such a thing.

Personally I'm the kind of person who gathers what I think is best for me in all religions. Therefore having read that, I've doubts that Jesus was God.

I understand your point, the reason we celebrate might be on different levels. You celebrate the birth of God, and I celebrate the coming of Messiah, the prophet who was born to redeem his people, the one whose birth and life was a miracle. Still, I don't see why we couldn't forget about spiritual level score boards and look at what we all can agree on.

FINALLY!

That was the whole point from the start of this conversation. The point that both SB and I were trying to make.


Don Cardi

I generally say "Merry Christmas" to everyone unless I know it would offend some individual.

That said, I also will wish my Jewish friends a happy new year in the middle of September, and I would not ask a Muslim to eat lunch with me during Ramadan.

It is all about tolerance, and I never understood what the big deal was bout "Happy Holidays" vs. "Merry Christmas." It is strictly up to the individual. Frankly I think the whole issue was made up by those morons at Fox.

Then how come I'm not allowed to "celebrate"?

.

Because I'm a witch! Actually, I would like to be Befana, the Italian Christmas witch. Doesn't that sound like a fun thing to be??

SC, I certainly didn't mean that the way it may have come out. And I apologize if I offended you. It's all semantics, isn't it?

Sounds better than being Dominic, the Italian Christmas donkey.

If I hurt SC in any way, then I do deserve to be called an ass.

Yes you can. Come to Ohio and celebtrate with me

Whatever you believe about Christ, God, religion, etc., I think it's just plain stupid to celebrate someone's birth and turn around and say that it's forbidden to mention the name of the birthday celebrity. It'd be like having MLK Day and forbidding anyone to mention him or discuss civil rights. People just need to grow thicker skin and get over it.

Because there's not enough Calamari for you!

You're welcomed to celebrate Christmas with me anytime!


Don Cardi

I just say Happy Festivus.

I don't mean to be offensive with anyone, but since Christmas is a Christian solemnity I don't see the reason why we should say Happy SOMETHING instead of Happy CHRISTMAS. This is a RELIGIOUS event, not just a seasonal occasion for overshopping and overeating and having a couple of days off. Christians - especially Christians! - should remember that.

And honestly this rather hypocritical mania of being overcorrect drives me mad. Evangelization is a task of crucial importance for Christians. Saying Happy Christmas I, as a Christian, mean to announce the birth of Jesus Christ, the son of God. If atheists or non Christians (not the ones of the likes of my dearest friend Afi, who unfortunately is a rare bird) feel offended by that, it's their problem.