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Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278790
12/16/04 02:02 AM
12/16/04 02:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 471
Signore Sole Aumentante Offline OP
Capo
Signore Sole Aumentante  Offline OP
Capo
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 471
nm


"Today I settled all family business, so don't tell me you're innocent, Carlo-" Michael Corleone

"I punks ed i gruppi ed i rappers moderni hanno avuti timore migliore il sole aumentante di questa cosa di il nostro."
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278791
12/16/04 02:06 AM
12/16/04 02:06 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
Is the author's ethnicity the only basis for picking him?


.
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278792
12/16/04 02:09 AM
12/16/04 02:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 471
Signore Sole Aumentante Offline OP
Capo
Signore Sole Aumentante  Offline OP
Capo
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 471
Put bluntly, Italian-Americans know more about Italian-American culture than other people and can therefore write about it better.


"Today I settled all family business, so don't tell me you're innocent, Carlo-" Michael Corleone

"I punks ed i gruppi ed i rappers moderni hanno avuti timore migliore il sole aumentante di questa cosa di il nostro."
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278793
12/16/04 04:09 AM
12/16/04 04:09 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 4,098
Existential Well
svsg Offline
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svsg  Offline
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Existential Well
Everything else being equal, I think Italian Americans should write about Italian American life. But that is seldom the case, and we shall never know for sure...

Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278794
12/16/04 05:09 AM
12/16/04 05:09 AM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,735
Lavinia from Italy Offline
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Lavinia from Italy  Offline
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Posts: 2,735
If you got the talent and an extremely good documentation about what you're going to write, you cant write on what you want, IMO. For example, Emilio Salgari was a most popular Italian writer, he wrote many books about Sandokan, a Malaysian hero having lots of adventures in the jungle, with pirates and tigers and stuff like that. He had not a single Malaysian blood tear and never moved from Turin. He got what every good author should have: an endless imagination and a real talent.

No need to say that being Italian American would be an extra-bonus ("la ciliegina sulla torta", we say---the cherry on top of the cake)


I don't want realism. I want magic! Yes, yes, magic. I try to give that to people. I do misrepresent things. I don't tell the truth. I tell what ought to be truth (Blanche/A streetcar named desire)
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278795
12/16/04 05:54 AM
12/16/04 05:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe Offline
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JustMe  Offline
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That's right, the most important thing is talent, not nationality. What gets me, is MW's phrase that he's OK because he's German-Irish, like Tom. As if Tom's only qualification was his descent! He was brought up in Sicilian family, knew their ways, worked 10 years with Vito before becoming his Consigliere, Vito himself once said "I made you a Sicilian", and STILL Tom didn't "Do pretty well in this world", he had many problems because of his non-Sicilian roots. And still he was no war-time Consigliere... :rolleyes:


keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278796
12/16/04 08:44 PM
12/16/04 08:44 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 367
Baltimore, MD
Don Provalone Offline
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Don Provalone  Offline
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Baltimore, MD
Concerning the GFR, the issue is not the heritage of the author, but rather his skills and the choices he made in designing this story. Sure, someone who was submerged in the culture could color the story with sensitivity, but a bad book is not a result of culture or DNA.

Sonny Corleone was pure Sicilian, but his heritage could not control his brain. As MLK once suggested, somethings are based on the content of character and beyond genotype and phenotype.

Let's just take a deep breath, assume the Lotus position and accept the fact - either you have it or you don't. If it is wrong to use heritage as an excuse for failure sociologically, then the same is true for literary efforts. GFR is (as of this second) #96 on the Amazon list. It has 3 1/2 stars and the price is on 34% off instead of 40% off, but it there for a reason. The author, regardless of his background, did not have the skills to pay the bills on this one.


"People who are not serious, should not be taken seriously"
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278797
12/16/04 09:10 PM
12/16/04 09:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,249
Desolation Row
Don Sonny Corleone Offline
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Don Sonny Corleone  Offline
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Desolation Row
GFR should have been written by someone who cares weither of not they were butchering popular book and movie adaptations, no matter it they were Italian or from the Moon. :rolleyes:


If winners never lose, well, then a loser sure can sing the blues.
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278798
12/17/04 03:58 AM
12/17/04 03:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5
Harlem Cadillac Offline
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Harlem Cadillac  Offline
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Posts: 5
Italians are probably best qualified but theere are exceptions. IMO MW is trying to live vicariously through Fausto Dominick “Nick” Geraci, Jr.. On this issue, MW makes race an issue himself. He says he could pass for German or Irish, whatever pass means and that hes fair haired, like MW. He makes him a well educated, street smart guy who looks like MW, and is also a really tough fighter. I dont think Puzo ever put himself in the story.


"I knew that was gonna happen as soon as they started makin' big money."
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278799
12/17/04 06:20 AM
12/17/04 06:20 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
plawrence Offline
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plawrence  Offline
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Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
I agree with Don Provalone and Don Sonny Corleone.

The problem with this book was not the inaccuracy or lack of detail about Italian culture.

The problem was the plot, which was boring, the inaccuracies in the story, which were quite annoying, and the writing itself, which was mediocre.


"Difficult....not impossible"
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278800
12/18/04 03:27 AM
12/18/04 03:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 471
Signore Sole Aumentante Offline OP
Capo
Signore Sole Aumentante  Offline OP
Capo
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Posts: 471
Something doesn't sound right though, with a Godfather story by a "Winegardner," instead of a Puzo or Coppola.


"Today I settled all family business, so don't tell me you're innocent, Carlo-" Michael Corleone

"I punks ed i gruppi ed i rappers moderni hanno avuti timore migliore il sole aumentante di questa cosa di il nostro."
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278801
12/18/04 09:03 AM
12/18/04 09:03 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
plawrence Offline
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The Slippery Slope
So we finally get to the heart of the matter.


"Difficult....not impossible"
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278802
12/18/04 11:43 AM
12/18/04 11:43 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
Quote:
Originally posted by Signore Sole Aumentante:
Something doesn't sound right though, with a Godfather story by a "Winegardner," instead of a Puzo or Coppola.
You could say the same thing about "Romeo and Juliet" being written by a Shakespeare. Oh, wait, never mind.....Shakespeare ends in a vowel. :rolleyes:


.
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278803
12/19/04 12:29 AM
12/19/04 12:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385
Tampa, FL
waynethegame Offline
Capo
waynethegame  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385
Tampa, FL
Quote:
Originally posted by Harlem Cadillac:
IMO MW is trying to live vicariously through Fausto Dominick “Nick” Geraci, Jr.
And that's another big issue I have with the novel (you know.. aside from everything else! lol); Winegardner is obviously trying to make "his" character a badass version of himself, hence all the hype about Geraci being "Michael's deadliest foe yet". To which I say bollocks, of course

Also notice what happens in the end with this supposed "deadliest foe"; I won't post details because they're spoilers (lame as it might be) but notice that the circumstances have NEVER applied at any other time in the book or the movies (PM me if you can't figure out what I'm talking about ), or to any other character.

*sigh* Just another in the long list of complaints about GFR.


Wayne

"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger."
Don Lucchesi
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278804
12/19/04 07:31 AM
12/19/04 07:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe Offline
Underboss
JustMe  Offline
Underboss
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Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Originally posted by waynethegame:
[QUOTE]I won't post details because they're spoilers (lame as it might be)
But it is so easy! You write: SPOILER WARNING!!!! SPOILER WARNING!!!!
And then post everything with peace of mind. Because if you don't, trying, as you do, not to be cruel to those who avoid spoilers, you are being very cruel to those who are looking for them...
:rolleyes:


keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278805
12/19/04 11:29 AM
12/19/04 11:29 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385
Tampa, FL
waynethegame Offline
Capo
waynethegame  Offline
Capo
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385
Tampa, FL
Okay I'm gonna put it in the Spoilers topic. So check that out


Wayne

"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger."
Don Lucchesi
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278806
12/19/04 01:46 PM
12/19/04 01:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 471
Signore Sole Aumentante Offline OP
Capo
Signore Sole Aumentante  Offline OP
Capo
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 471
Romeo and Juliet was Shakespeare's invention. The Godfather story is Puzo's, hence an Italian name sounds better attached to an expansion of that Italian story.


"Today I settled all family business, so don't tell me you're innocent, Carlo-" Michael Corleone

"I punks ed i gruppi ed i rappers moderni hanno avuti timore migliore il sole aumentante di questa cosa di il nostro."
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278807
01/01/05 09:17 PM
01/01/05 09:17 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi Offline
Caporegime
Don Cardi  Offline
Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Quote:
Originally posted by Signore Sole Aumentante:
Romeo and Juliet was Shakespeare's invention. The Godfather story is Puzo's, hence an Italian name sounds better attached to an expansion of that Italian story.
What in the world does his name have to do with his ability to write this book?
The book was boring not because of his possible lack of knowledge of the Italian heritage, but it was boring on the basis of his not knowing anything about the characters themselves.
If what you are saying is true than he would have had a best seller on his hands had he written a book about Hyman Roth! :rolleyes:

Don Cardi



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278808
01/03/05 03:16 PM
01/03/05 03:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 379
Southeast USA
Don Vanchenzo Offline
Capo
Don Vanchenzo  Offline
Capo
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 379
Southeast USA
Quote:
Originally posted by plawrence:
I agree with Don Provalone and Don Sonny Corleone.

The problem with this book was not the inaccuracy or lack of detail about Italian culture.

The problem was the plot, which was boring, the inaccuracies in the story, which were quite annoying, and the writing itself, which was mediocre.
I don't care if the guy is italian or not. I just wished he'd read the original novel and watched the movies, that's all. Surely I book as rutterless as this one had to be put together with summaries provided by FSU students. This guy's an idiot - and that transcends culture.


"The Godfather was a man to whom everybody came for help and never were they disappointed. He made no empty promises, nor the craven excuse that his hands were tied by more powerful forces in the world than himself. It was not necessary that he be your friend, it was not even important that you had no means with which to repay him. Only one thing was required. That you, yourself, proclaim your friendship. And then, no matter how poor or powerless the supplicant, the Godfather would take that person's troubles to his heart. He would let nothing stand in the way to a solution of that person's woe. His reward? Friendship, the respectful title 'Don' and sometimes the more affectionate salutation of 'Godfather.' Perhaps, to show respect only, never for profit, some humble gift - a gallon or homemade wine or a basket of fresh baked goods on a holiday. It was understood to proclaim that you were in his debt and that he had the right to call upon you at any time to redeem the debt by some small service." -- Mario Puzo, The Godfather (1969).
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278809
01/03/05 04:22 PM
01/03/05 04:22 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2
los angeles
Cour De Leone Offline
Associate
Cour De Leone  Offline
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Posts: 2
los angeles
no offense to Mark Winegardner, his book was good but it sucked too. Anyways Fredos story and Mike and Johnny f. story were great but they led to nowhere. But the most important thing is that Mike corl leaves someone alive who would not be if PUZO had written it. Mark shouldve written PART FOUR better, instead of Godfather 33 and a third, or whatever it was, it was like an anthropoligical study done by an outsider. Godfather One the Book is a Classic...but PART FOUR IS WHAT WE WANT...

heehee


Ill make him an offer he wont refuse...
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278810
01/06/05 08:50 PM
01/06/05 08:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 367
Baltimore, MD
Don Provalone Offline
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Don Provalone  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 367
Baltimore, MD
CDL:

Welcome to the Boards - I just wanted to let you know how much I like your board image!


"People who are not serious, should not be taken seriously"
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278811
01/09/05 04:58 PM
01/09/05 04:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 99
Ireland
Martin Sbalzi Offline
Button
Martin Sbalzi  Offline
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Posts: 99
Ireland
Quote:
Originally posted by Signore Sole Aumentante:
Put bluntly, Italian-Americans know more about Italian-American culture than other people and can therefore write about it better.
Not true. Not all Italian-Americans are members of the mafia, so not all Italian-American writers would know more about it. For example, Mario Puzo was not a member of the mafia, but used his imagination to create one of the best novels ever written. Winegardner could so the same.


È la paura che tiene ci fedele.
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278812
01/10/05 01:03 PM
01/10/05 01:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe Offline
Underboss
JustMe  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Originally posted by Martin Rushe:
Not all Italian-Americans are members of the mafia, so not all Italian-American writers would know more about it. For example, Mario Puzo was not a member of the mafia, but used his imagination to create one of the best novels ever written. Winegardner could so the same.
Oh, no, you are not correct. This book costed him 3 years of writing, and he made a thorough research about the Mafia (At least he learned as much as they could let him.) He became so close to them personally that he even got into FBI reports, as their archives show.


keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278813
01/10/05 09:07 PM
01/10/05 09:07 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,249
Desolation Row
Don Sonny Corleone Offline
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Don Sonny Corleone  Offline
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Posts: 4,249
Desolation Row
But the main thing is HE WAS NOT A MEMBER. Jimmy Caan hung around wiseguys during the filming of The Godfather so much they opened a file up on him too, doesnt mean he was inducted into the Mafia. His point was that Winegardener could have researched The Godfathers already in existance, but chose not to.


If winners never lose, well, then a loser sure can sing the blues.
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278814
01/14/05 02:28 PM
01/14/05 02:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe Offline
Underboss
JustMe  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Originally posted by Don Sonny Corleone:
But the main thing is HE WAS NOT A MEMBER. Jimmy Caan hung around wiseguys during the filming of The Godfather so much they opened a file up on him too, doesnt mean he was inducted into the Mafia. His point was that Winegardener could have researched The Godfathers already in existance, but chose not to.
Of course he was not a member! I meant to say that it was not only his imagination that helped him creating this book. MW undoubtedly did some research about Mafia, but that is not my point. His writing manner, in the first chapter at least, shocks me with vulgarity and distaste when describing simple things, where no special research is necessary at all.


keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278815
01/17/05 11:15 PM
01/17/05 11:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,249
Desolation Row
Don Sonny Corleone Offline
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Don Sonny Corleone  Offline
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Posts: 4,249
Desolation Row
Sorry about that I must have misunderstood you, and I hope I am misunderstanding the "MW researched" anything part of your post :p


If winners never lose, well, then a loser sure can sing the blues.
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278816
01/18/05 07:14 AM
01/18/05 07:14 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe Offline
Underboss
JustMe  Offline
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Posts: 3,733
Quote:
Originally posted by Don Sonny Corleone:
Sorry about that I must have misunderstood you, and I hope I am misunderstanding the "MW researched" anything part of your post :p
Saying that he "researched" I didn't mean that he researched the original novel or characters. I read enough to doubt it. But he includes in his book such details of criminal business that he couldn't invent himself. That made me think that he read something about organized crime, maybe only popular - I don't know. Nothing else implied.
It didn't make him so much more believeable expert as he thought, though.
By the way, about Puso's approaching Mafia, don't you think that Mafiosi, his fellows-Italians, would rather tell something about "Our Thing" to him than to a German-Irish?
With hope that I'm at last intelligible... :rolleyes:


keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
Re: Should an Italian have been hired to write Godfather Returns? #278817
01/18/05 07:54 PM
01/18/05 07:54 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 367
Baltimore, MD
Don Provalone Offline
Capo
Don Provalone  Offline
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Posts: 367
Baltimore, MD
Quote:
Originally posted by JustMe:
[quote]Originally posted by Don Sonny Corleone:
[b] Sorry about that I must have misunderstood you, and I hope I am misunderstanding the "MW researched" anything part of your post :p
Saying that he "researched" I didn't mean that he researched the original novel or characters. I read enough to doubt it. But he includes in his book such details of criminal business that he couldn't invent himself. That made me think that he read something about organized crime, maybe only popular - I don't know. Nothing else implied.
It didn't make him so much more believeable expert as he thought, though.
By the way, about Puso's approaching Mafia, don't you think that Mafiosi, his fellows-Italians, would rather tell something about "Our Thing" to him than to a German-Irish?
With hope that I'm at last intelligible... :rolleyes:
[/b][/quote]...even so, MW's background would not have made this a good book. In fact, if you extend the logic that certain abilities are biologically linked, you enter into some very dangerous turf. Yes, being of Italian origin may have made the content richer, but crap is still crap whether you eat a sword fish with butter sauce or animal crackers. If MW was Italian, then GFR might have more cultural protein, but it would not smell any better.


"People who are not serious, should not be taken seriously"

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