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Re: Vito's slipup [Re: olivant] #448916
11/08/07 01:41 PM
11/08/07 01:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
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dontomasso  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2005
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
The bottom liine here is Luca was the wrong man for the job. This guy was tough but he couldn't even give his own Don a wedding gift without flubbing his lines. No way he could have conned Sollozzo.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Turnbull] #962707
01/30/19 01:44 AM
01/30/19 01:44 AM
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Kangaroo Don Offline
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Perhaps even Vito “there is a lot I can't tell”!

Whilst the key was always to kill Vito sooner or later....yes or no....to the drug deal
When was Vito's mind made up about Sollozzo's, Sicilian and top narcotics man, drug deal?

Vito asked Sonny and Tom for their take, when they discussed the up coming Sollozzo's meeting. among others -

Sonny “There's a lot of money in that white powder”

Tom ”There's more money potential in narcotics than anything else we're looking at”

Sonny even asked “So, what's your answer gonna be, Pop?”

So Vito knew both Sonny and Tom were keen still doesn't excuse Sonny's out of turn blunder though

Sure thing “(It's Tom's counsel that give us the entire premise for the movie!)” but in fairness to Tom, in this instance, it seems, Vito had kept both Tom and Sonny 'pretty much in the dark' not discussing his decision with them prior to the meeting and both were “totally in the dark” had no idea Vito had sent Luca to Tattaglias thus to Luca's death

However Tom didn't dig into Sollozzo deep enough eg: not finding out Barzini's was the puppet master

However if Vito had “already made up his mind to say no to Sollozzo” before their meeting why didn't Vito inform Sonny and Tom accordingly unless the decision was made at the meeting which seems unlikely, if my memory serves me right, there was no additional information revealed by Sollozzo except the profit sharing and the million dollars finance

The reason for Vito's no to Sollozzo drug deal was because “drugs is a dirty business” nothing new there

I also believe, Tom would have consulted with Vito before Tom “communicated that the family would interested in hearing about Sollazzo's deal” “If nothing else, that would be very out of character for Tom”

It seems Vito's mind was already made up before the meeting and Vito only saw Sollozzo because Vito “heard that Sollozzo is a serious man, to be treated with respect”

However valid point “Ten years ago, with Genco as consigliere, I don't think Don Corleone takes a meeting with Virgil Sollazzo at all, and certainly not to tell him, "No”

And it was Michael “We can't wait. I don't care what Sollozzo says about a deal, he's gonna kill Pop, that's it. That's the key for him. Gotta get Sollozzo” whereas Tom wanted to wait!

“And Vito, well, Vito was, well...”!!

Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Kangaroo Don] #962723
01/30/19 11:38 AM
01/30/19 11:38 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz Offline
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Interesting points, Lana.

Tom tells Vito at the wedding "Virgil Sollozzo called. Now we're gonna have to give him a day sometime next week."

But why? Just because he's a serious man? Remember, his association with Tattaglia wasn't "public," so what forced Vito to meet with him?

One other thing - just because we don't see Vito tell Tom and Sonny what his answer will be that doesn't mean that he doesn't. I think FFC was just trying to build up a little dram - they surely must have known.

Sonny's gaffe was unforgivable regardless.

But, yes, the whole Sollozzo thing - from his specious reasoning for refusal to his failure to smell a rat when Paulie was sick to his sending Luca out with a silly cover story - shows that Vito was slipping.

Originally Posted by Lana
Perhaps even Vito “there is a lot I can't tell”!

Whilst the key was always to kill Vito sooner or later....yes or no....to the drug deal
When was Vito's mind made up about Sollozzo's, Sicilian and top narcotics man, drug deal?

Vito asked Sonny and Tom for their take, when they discussed the up coming Sollozzo's meeting. among others -

Sonny “There's a lot of money in that white powder”

Tom ”There's more money potential in narcotics than anything else we're looking at”

Sonny even asked “So, what's your answer gonna be, Pop?”

So Vito knew both Sonny and Tom were keen still doesn't excuse Sonny's out of turn blunder though

Sure thing “(It's Tom's counsel that give us the entire premise for the movie!)” but in fairness to Tom, in this instance, it seems, Vito had kept both Tom and Sonny 'pretty much in the dark' not discussing his decision with them prior to the meeting and both were “totally in the dark” had no idea Vito had sent Luca to Tattaglias thus to Luca's death

However Tom didn't dig into Sollozzo deep enough eg: not finding out Barzini's was the puppet master

However if Vito had “already made up his mind to say no to Sollozzo” before their meeting why didn't Vito inform Sonny and Tom accordingly unless the decision was made at the meeting which seems unlikely, if my memory serves me right, there was no additional information revealed by Sollozzo except the profit sharing and the million dollars finance

The reason for Vito's no to Sollozzo drug deal was because “drugs is a dirty business” nothing new there

I also believe, Tom would have consulted with Vito before Tom “communicated that the family would interested in hearing about Sollazzo's deal” “If nothing else, that would be very out of character for Tom”

It seems Vito's mind was already made up before the meeting and Vito only saw Sollozzo because Vito “heard that Sollozzo is a serious man, to be treated with respect”

However valid point “Ten years ago, with Genco as consigliere, I don't think Don Corleone takes a meeting with Virgil Sollazzo at all, and certainly not to tell him, "No”

And it was Michael “We can't wait. I don't care what Sollozzo says about a deal, he's gonna kill Pop, that's it. That's the key for him. Gotta get Sollozzo” whereas Tom wanted to wait!

“And Vito, well, Vito was, well...”!!


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Turnbull] #962724
01/30/19 12:34 PM
01/30/19 12:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

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Posts: 19,624
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[quote The Last Waltz] Tom tells Vito at the wedding "Virgil Sollozzo called. Now we're gonna have to give him a day sometime next week."

But why? Just because he's a serious man? Remember, his association with Tattaglia wasn't "public," so what forced Vito to meet with him? [/quote]
I'm guessing that it was Mob protocol. As Lana said, Vito probably decided against the drug deal long before he met with Sol. But, Vito was known as "a man of reasonableness," which helped him in his diplomacy with other Dons during peacetime. Refusing to see Sol, who was in effect sponsored by the Tattaglias, would be unnecessarily rude, and would cause bad feelings--or worse. Vito probably kept putting off the meeting with Sol, which was why Tom pressed him for a date.

BTW: There was more to Vito's opposition to drugs than the threat to his political base. In the novel, he tells Tom: "What he [Sol] will propose is an infamia."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Turnbull] #962735
01/30/19 03:07 PM
01/30/19 03:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
O
olivant Offline
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O

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Texas
Originally Posted by Turnbull

I'm guessing that it was Mob protocol. As Lana said, Vito probably decided against the drug deal long before he met with Sol. But, Vito was known as "a man of reasonableness," which helped him in his diplomacy with other Dons during peacetime. Refusing to see Sol, who was in effect sponsored by the Tattaglias, would be unnecessarily rude, and would cause bad feelings--or worse. Vito probably kept putting off the meeting with Sol, which was why Tom pressed him for a date.

BTW: There was more to Vito's opposition to drugs than the threat to his political base. In the novel, he tells Tom: "What he [Sol] will propose is an infamia."


TB, you're probably right that Vito's consent to the Sollozzo meeting was probably protocol and a courtesy to the Tattaglias.

Also BTW, in the novel Vito notes to Tom that, previously, Sollozzo made a living from prostitution which Vito frowned on ("just as the Tattaglias do now").


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Vito's slipup [Re: olivant] #962740
01/30/19 04:05 PM
01/30/19 04:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

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AZ
Yes, I remember that condemnation. Puzo wrote that Vito was "notoriously straight-laced in matters of sex." That was confirmed when Puzo wrote about young Vito, after he met young Clemenza, and they stole the carpet out of an apartment. Vito still needed money because, as Puzo wrote, "He couldn't eat the rug." tongue


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Turnbull] #962999
02/02/19 02:24 AM
02/02/19 02:24 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011
Australia
K
Kangaroo Don Offline
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Kangaroo Don  Offline
K
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011
Australia
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Vito known as "a man of reasonableness," which helped him in his diplomacy with other Dons during peacetime. Refusing to see Sol, who was in effect sponsored by the Tattaglias, would be unnecessarily rude, and would cause bad feelings--or worse
Makes sense Turnbull

Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
And the meeting wasn't the problem - the refusal was. Had Tom counseled Vito not to meet, things would likely have proceeed the same way
Sorry Woltz I had missed the above from your previous post

Now I am even more confused!
  • What did Sollozzo tell Tom regarding the meeting he was requesting with Vito, was for
  • Did the Corleones figure out themselves from their own [Tom's] enquiries that the meeting was about drugs
  • Yet Sollozzo told Tom after 'kidnapping' Tom “And you knew it was the right thing to do" As Turnbull already pointed out “How'd Sollozzo get that impression?”.
  • Tom also found out about Tattaglia connection which Sollozzo hadn't revealed, as evident from Sollozzo's “my compliments

It seems everyone was flattering everyone! For easy reference....

Sollozzo
Vito - I need a man who has powerful friends. I need a million dollars in cash. I need, Don Corleone, those politicians that you carry in your pocket, like so many nickels and dimes
Tom - my compliments [inwardly feeling smug that the Corleones have no idea about Barzini connection]

Vito - Sollozzo is a serious man, to be treated with respect

Vito granted the meeting to Sollozzo “to soften the blow of his refusal” but “things would likely have proceeded the same way” meeting or no meeting, yes or no, sooner or later Vito is a dead man indeed

Slipup Vito's worry was for the wrong reasons – finding out what they had under their fingernails – whilst Barzini and other families were plotting to kill Vito

Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Turnbull] #963037
02/02/19 02:09 PM
02/02/19 02:09 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Yes, I remember that condemnation. Puzo wrote that Vito was "notoriously straight-laced in matters of sex." That was confirmed when Puzo wrote about young Vito, after he met young Clemenza, and they stole the carpet out of an apartment. Vito still needed money because, as Puzo wrote, "He couldn't eat the rug." tongue


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Vito's slipup [Re: olivant] #963038
02/02/19 02:10 PM
02/02/19 02:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
Originally Posted by olivant
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Yes, I remember that condemnation. Puzo wrote that Vito was "notoriously straight-laced in matters of sex." That was confirmed when Puzo wrote about young Vito, after he met young Clemenza, and they stole the carpet out of an apartment. Vito still needed money because, as Puzo wrote, "He couldn't eat the rug." tongue



Cute.
wink


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Kangaroo Don] #963090
02/02/19 11:01 PM
02/02/19 11:01 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624
AZ
Originally Posted by Lana

[*]Yet Sollozzo told Tom after 'kidnapping' Tom “And you knew it was the right thing to do" As Turnbull already pointed out “How'd Sollozzo get that impression?”.
[*] Tom also found out about Tattaglia connection which Sollozzo hadn't revealed, as evident from Sollozzo's “my compliments
[*][/list]
Since Tom was the contact between the Tattaglias and Solozzo for the drugs meeting, it wouldn't have been difficult for Sol to read Tom's reactions and figure out that Tom favored the deal. "My compliments" was, as you said, Sol buttering up Tom. It was no intelligence coup for Tom to know that the Tattaglias were backing Sol--he never would have gotten to see Vito without a major family vouching for him.

It's true that Vito missed seeing Barzini in the Solozzo deal. I've posted earlier that I believe Sol would have gone to Barzini first because he would have figured that Vito, already on top with rackets that were a lot safer than Sol's, would have nothing to gain from the drugs deal--whereas Barzini, younger and more ambitious than the other Dons, would. Barzini would have told Sol: "Your logic is good. But, you still need Corleone's politicians and judges. if Corleone hears that I'm your partner, he'll say no. Go to Tattaglia: he's a pimp, Corleone's not worried about him. But, I'll be your silent partner and I will have your back."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Turnbull] #963093
02/03/19 02:10 AM
02/03/19 02:10 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011
Australia
K
Kangaroo Don Offline
Underboss
Kangaroo Don  Offline
K
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Australia
Many thanks Turnbull, you really do have a Doctorate in Godfatherology!

Fair point that “it wouldn't have been difficult for Sol to read Tom's reactions and figure out that Tom favored the deal”

It seemed Sollozzo hadn't revealed the Tattaglia connection ie: Sollozzo still gotten to see Vito without using a major family vouching for him as leverage

I remember your earlier posts, in addition to the above regarding Barzini being the 'silent partner' because [wanted to dethrone Vito and take over] - among others, extracts: from a couple of your previous posts....Proof that I am a diligent student!

If Sonny had shut up
Barzini was younger than the other Dons, impatient to be Numero Uno, had more to gain from a deal with Sol--and would give him better terms

Tessio/Barzini meeting
Barzini was impatient with being the Number Two Don

Was Barzini's beef personal?
I think Barzini's moves against Vito were "personal" in the sense that he thought of himself as No.1 waiting in the wings, impatient to be the top dog in NYC, younger than the other Dons, whom he regarded as "Moustache Petes" (per the novel). But, I don't think he had a personal grudge against Vito

Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Turnbull] #963324
02/05/19 07:24 PM
02/05/19 07:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 770
T
Trojan Online content
Underboss
Trojan  Online Content
T
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 770
Michael ended up paying for Vito's karma as well

Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Trojan] #963409
02/07/19 01:04 AM
02/07/19 01:04 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,011
Australia
K
Kangaroo Don Offline
Underboss
Kangaroo Don  Offline
K
Underboss
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Australia
Vito lost a child to violent death as well same as Michael but comparatively Vito was unscathed indeed, thanks to his wife Carmela who kept the family together "you can never lose your family"

[Vito's bonus! an old fashioned traditional wife, Carmela]

Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Kangaroo Don] #963799
02/12/19 06:33 AM
02/12/19 06:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 431
C
Capri Offline
Capo
Capri  Offline
C
Capo
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Posts: 431
Originally Posted by Lana
It seemed Sollozzo hadn't revealed the Tattaglia connection ie: Sollozzo still gotten to see Vito without using a major family vouching for him as leverage


Exactly Lana
You think too much of Turnbull he is not that clever!

Re: Vito's slipup [Re: Kangaroo Don] #963805
02/12/19 09:07 AM
02/12/19 09:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
Originally Posted by Lana

Was Barzini's beef personal?
I think Barzini's moves against Vito were "personal" in the sense that he thought of himself as No.1 waiting in the wings, impatient to be the top dog in NYC, younger than the other Dons, whom he regarded as "Moustache Petes" (per the novel). But, I don't think he had a personal grudge against Vito


And ultimately that's why Barzini wasn't as great as Vito. Vito took EVERYTHING personally despite his outward statements that he didn't (take everything personal).


.
Re: Vito's slipup [Re: SC] #963845
02/12/19 03:30 PM
02/12/19 03:30 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624
AZ
Originally Posted by SC
Originally Posted by Lana

Was Barzini's beef personal?
I think Barzini's moves against Vito were "personal" in the sense that he thought of himself as No.1 waiting in the wings, impatient to be the top dog in NYC, younger than the other Dons, whom he regarded as "Moustache Petes" (per the novel). But, I don't think he had a personal grudge against Vito


And ultimately that's why Barzini wasn't as great as Vito. Vito took EVERYTHING personally despite his outward statements that he didn't (take everything personal).


The novel makes that point early, after Michael volunteers to whack Mac and Sol. Michael says something like Vito cares about "every feather that falls from every sparrow's wing."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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