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Re: IF Tom had been a Sicilian
#9570
06/17/04 05:50 PM
06/17/04 05:50 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058 The Slippery Slope
plawrence
RIP StatMan
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RIP StatMan
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
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Originally posted by TheKillerGFan: He.....had all the cunning of a sicilian Many would disagree with that. He wasn't cunning enough to detect the Sollozzo/Carlo Rizzi alliance and the move which lured Sonny out in the open and led to his demise. He said as much himself in the novel, I believe.
"Difficult....not impossible"
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Re: IF Tom had been a Sicilian
#9572
06/17/04 06:11 PM
06/17/04 06:11 PM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 44 home of the wildcats, kentucky
belle
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 44
home of the wildcats, kentucky
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Tom is my favorite character (behind Michael of course). He poses such a stark contrast in so many ways with the rest of the family. He's the tall, blond, educated, straight man who never realy seems to belong, much like Kay. You got to feel sorry for Tom in part II when Mike meets w/ Johnny Ola and Tom (former consliere)has to leave the room. Like, "its time for the grown ups to talk now Tom".
Winegardner sleeps with the fishes.
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Re: IF Tom had been a Sicilian
#9574
06/17/04 07:53 PM
06/17/04 07:53 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 177
Don Aleksandr
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 177
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Originally posted by TheKillerGFan: I dont remember that, but I remember many times in the novel when they would praise Tom's sharpness. For example when he figured hed be out because of Roccos regime, and he was teh one that warned the family that sollozo had an ace up his sleeve before the attack on VIto at the hospital. Wasn't that Michael?
"Fredo -- you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the Family again. Ever."
"My father taught me many things ... keep your friends close, but your enemies closer."
"I know it was you, Fredo. You broke my heart. You broke my heart."
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Re: IF Tom had been a Sicilian
#9575
06/17/04 08:07 PM
06/17/04 08:07 PM
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058 The Slippery Slope
plawrence
RIP StatMan
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RIP StatMan
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
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Originally posted by plawrence: He wasn't cunning enough to detect the Sollozzo/Carlo Rizzi alliance and the move which lured Sonny out in the open and led to his demise.
He said as much himself in the novel, I believe. Originally posted by TheKillerGFan: I dont remember that. From the novel, the scene where Tom tells Don C. that Sonny has been killed: "He was, he knew now, no fit Consigliori for a Family at war. He had been fooled, faked out, by the Five Families and their seeming timidity. They had remained quiet, laying their terrible ambush. They had planned and waited, holding their bloody hands no matter what provocation they had been given. They had waited to land one terrible blow. And they had. Old Genco Abbandando would never have fallen for it, he would have smelled a rat, he would have smoked them out, tripled his precautions." (italics mine)
"Difficult....not impossible"
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Re: IF Tom had been a Sicilian
#9576
06/17/04 08:38 PM
06/17/04 08:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,150 MI6
Krlea
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,150
MI6
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Tom is also my favorite character. I do believe that if he was Sicilian he would have become the Don and Michael would have been able to be a politician or "the one pulling the strings" as his Father wanted him to be. Don Vito made a huge leap in letting Tom become the consigliere in the first place considering he was not a Sicilian.
Tom was just as cunning as Michael. I know I'm going to get alot of grief for that but if you think about how things eventually played out, Tom would have handled things much differently. Fredo never would have felt stepped over, Michael and Kay would have lived happily ever after, and Rocco would never have been sent on a suicide mission.
As far as Tom not being a "wartime consigliere". What else was he supposed to do? He tried to stop Sonny. Sonny knew he was in danger, it wasn't his first war, he lost his temper and lost his head in the process. Tom's thoughts that plawrence quotes after finding out his best childhood and adult friend have been killed are natural. Of course he is going to blame himself, Tom was closer to Sonny than anyone. Sonny got them in the war in the first place by talking during the Solozzo meeting. Tom new that flaw the second it happenend, Sonny didn't have a clue. Even Don Vito says he never thought Tom a bad consigliere.
Michael claiming that Tom is just not a wartime consigliere is, in my mind, just an excuse for Michael to weild his power without having to listen to Tom's rational advice.
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Re: IF Tom had been a Sicilian
#9584
06/18/04 11:55 AM
06/18/04 11:55 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
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Originally posted by Sicilian Babe: I don't think that Carlo planned any vengeance. I think that after Sonny flew into a rage and beat him, the Barzini's took note. They approached Carlo and, using his dissatisfaction with his position within the Corleone family. Carlo may not have planned vengeance, but he was ready, willing and able when Barzini approached him. Given the stupidity of his action--did he really think that the Corleones wouldn't see the cause/effect between his beating of Connie and Sonny's massacre?--you can see that Carlo's motive was vengeance, not money, power or anything else Barzini might have promised him.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: IF Tom had been a Sicilian
#9585
06/18/04 01:13 PM
06/18/04 01:13 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,453 California
XDCX
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 5,453
California
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Mike would have become Don, whether Tom was Sicilian or not. It was his destiny. FFC really didn't get the whole "every man has but one destiny" thing across. In the book, Puzo beats the destiny thing into your skull, and so those who have read the book know this. Michael didn't wanna get involved, to be sure, but once he found out about Santino, and once he saw Appolonia killed, he had no choice. He sought vengeance, and what better way than to achieve that vengeance, and have the power to get away with it?
"Growing up my dad was like 'You have a great last name, Galifianakis. Galifianakis...begins with a gal...and ends with a kiss...' I'm like that's great dad, can we get it changed to 'Galifianafuck' please?" -- Zach Galifianakis
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Re: IF Tom had been a Sicilian
#9588
06/18/04 02:46 PM
06/18/04 02:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
EnzoBaker
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 310
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Originally posted by plawrence: Originally posted by TheKillerGFan: [b] He.....had all the cunning of a sicilian Many would disagree with that.
He wasn't cunning enough to detect the Sollozzo/Carlo Rizzi alliance and the move which lured Sonny out in the open and led to his demise. [/b]True, but Tom did attempt to get bodyguards to go along with Sonny when he stormed out of the mall to go wipe up Carlo, but Sonny was blowing his cork as usual and lit out of there before Tom or anybody else could slow him down. And Sonny, as acting Don while Vito was laid up, could also be criticized for not detecting Carlo's defection to the Barzinis. Tom certainly bears some of the blame but more than anything else it was Sonny's own hot-headedness. Sonny could have sent some button men over to round up Carlo with orders "bring him to me," and then smoked him, himself, but he was too hot-headed to wait around for that. He wanted to take care of Carlo himself and he wanted to do it RIGHT THAT MINUTE, and that's what did him in.
"You did good."
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Re: IF Tom had been a Sicilian
#9589
06/23/04 10:07 PM
06/23/04 10:07 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 110 Berlin, Germany
consiGliera
Made Member
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Made Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 110
Berlin, Germany
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If Tom had been a Sicilian... well, then he wouldn´t have been Tom in the first place, wouldn´t he? I always reGard the whole persona of this reasonable man as built upon his desire to truly be part of the Corleone family. LivinG with the Corleones as a foster son - the eternal outsider - has influenced his soft-spokeness, his tendency to remain in the backGround, his suckinG up details and information about his environment. he was a fly on the wall, respectively. Also, his lack of pride and self-confidence, which made him that hesitant (and thus causinG problems) is a result of beinG the ultimate stalwart for the "real sons". To me it´s impossible to see Tom as a "true Sicilian", since the whole point of his charakter is that he can never be. and it´s not just for the Sicilian cunninG...
"i understand you have to deal with a lot of people who try to seem more important than they are. In my case the reverse is true." -Tom Hagen
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