Again, we know how you feel, now what Nicky? Let me guess youre just going to keep regurgitating the same sentiment until you get tired?

Nicky, I appreciate you opinion. You definitely reflect the thoughts of the Buffalo News and the Feds--that is without question. Your arguments have been well thought out and helped us have a great discussion. Although I certainly understand the feds, the buffalo news, and your position my experience tells me otherwise. I know you are a logic guy and experience plays no role in decision making for you... but some of us go by our gut. I think this is why we will not resolve this debate, at this time. If in the next two years or so nothing comes of the Violi arrests, there is no more LCN type crime in WNY, then I will believe the Buffalo News and Feds. I just can't at this point for the reasons Rooster, Giacomo, and I have stated. That may make me naive or gullible in your eyes and the eyes of others, but that is OK.

Nicky;

I do no think you can compare Buffalo to other defunt families for a few reasons:

1) Maggidino headed the commission at one point.
2) Buffalo had 200 made men, they were bigger than 3 of the 5 families and Chicago.
3) Buffalo was set up as the gate keeper of the Canadian border from the days of prohibition them and Bonnano were the only families to have powerful crews on both sides of the boarder. The Bonnano's lost that when the Rizzuto's broke away, so Buffalo remained as the only family to have that route intact.
4) The other smaller families some had 20-30 Made men at their peak it is alot easier for those familes to die off.
5) At 200 Made memebers you had their sons, nephews, cousins etc to carry on the tradition.
6) The Canadiin smuggle route is stil intact today and as per current LE, that pipeline is being used to smuggle drugs onto U.S. soil.
7) That smuggle route is a racket onto itself.
8) How does Clevland, Dallas or even Tampa compare to Buffalo, as far as I know Trafficante Jr. really had all the power not so much his organization, pretty much everything died with him.

Nicky consider this if the Genovese family dwindled down from 200 made mebers where about they are today to say 20-30 guys would a lot of experts consider them being dead in relative terms?

That would be a 90% decrease, do you really need a squad for say 20 made guys?

Look at it this way if the 5 familes decreased in membership from where they are today say 700 made guys down to just 70 would the FBI need multiple squads to cover them? And would the overall opinion of the mob as a whole be that it is DEAD?

Yes however, it does not mean they are defunct....
and that does not mean that if the attention is taken away from them that they would not have the capacity to build from 20 to 30 to 40 again.

Couldnt compare those families to Buffalo way back then and you cant compare them to Buffalo now. Apples and oranges. Just the way it is. And theyll be viable for a some time to come.

The existence of a crime family is not subjective.

And I don't see your point of view here? If I ask a question, and you respond, am I not allowed to follow up?

I get that this argument won't go anywhere. It's evidence vs. street knowledge. When the two conflict, I (personally) go with the evidence at hand, as opposed to uncorroborated street knowledge. If people disagree, that's on them.

BUT. I will reply to Bensonhurst, since he is questioning the 'logic' of my argument. But with Rooster, and Giacomo, and others, there is really only so much I can say. I can say "Brian Cohen is not a Buffalo crime family associate" and Rooster can say "Yes he is." I can't argue with that, because anyone can make the argument that the feds are wrong, or that DAs are wrong, or that journalists are wrong.



You throw around the 200 made members number, but by 1989 there were only 45 made members. 45! And that was BEFORE they began to feel the effects of the FBI.
If the Buffalo crime family had 200 members in 1989, and then they got under the thumb of the feds (like all families in America did), then they would have certainly survived and they would probably still be active today. But when the FBI launched their attack against the Buffalo mob, the crime family was ALREADY down to 45 made members. Which means a far quicker demise for a family, and an easier job for the feds.

I am not saying that the FBI is the sole reason for the Buffalo mob's downfall. The family actually began shrinking after Stefano Magaddino's death. In fact, according to Matt Gryta, the family's influence was waning by 1979. For those who don't know, Gryta is a veteran crime reporter for the Buffalo News who has worked at the Buffalo News for five decades. He is quite knowledgeable on the mob all over the states.

Stefano Magaddino, even before he died, caused a rift in the family. Then, after his death, there was another conflict in which Joe Todaro Sr. came out the victor. He did a good job at patching things up for awhile, but it was too little too late and by 1989 the family had gone from 200 made members in the 50s and 60s to to 45 made members. Then, the family had a spate of informers due to the FBI's onslaught, the Vegas connection was severed, the union control was dismantled, and loansharking & gambling books were hit. Joe Todaro Sr. stopped the family getting into narcotics as best he could (although members began to get involved in drugs when he semi-retired to Florida), which means the Buffalo mob never had a big foothold in that market. They were definitely into gambling and loansharking, but here's what Lee Coppola said about that:
"But like a lot of businesses, the mob found that when the economy goes bad, profits shrink and eventually even disappear. The region's declining population, the loss of thousands of factory jobs with weekly incomes and convenient locales for betting played a major role in the decline of the Buffalo Mafia. The customer base evaporated, and mob leaders weren't wise enough -- or strong enough -- to find other sources of income to fill the void."

Im.not asking you any questions. Youre welcome to keep asking questions Nicky, what else would you like answered that hasnt already been answered by now 4 different posters?

It is subjective actually, interpretation is subjective, definition is subjective, articles are subjective, etc., etc.

"But like a lot of businesses, the mob found that when the economy goes bad, profits shrink and eventually even disappear. The region's declining population, the loss of thousands of factory jobs with weekly incomes and convenient locales for betting played a major role in the decline of the Buffalo Mafia. The customer base evaporated, and mob leaders weren't wise enough -- or strong enough -- to find other sources of income to fill the void."


This is the most broad, sweeping, generalizing statement in the world.

Especially when the FBI touts how the modern day Mafia has evolved, found new rackets, adapted, and proved their resilience. Give me a break.

Now your "hard" evidence is looking hollow. Reminds me in 98 when Coppola says that the Buffalo mob is penniless. What a joke.

That one line by Coppola in that article proves he is provocateur who writes things that are delusional. Trying to sell himself and his writing with exaggeration and self perceived grandeur

Yep, waning in 1979. More delusion, changing but not waning. Evolution of the entire world its called.

His articles have contradictions in them as well.

Coppola could write anything and youd take it as Gospel

You keep questioning street knowledge as if it doesnt exist. I asked you before, do you know what kind of car Loscalzo drives?

In other words, youre from Tampa correct? The Tampa family is suppose to be your thing right? Do you have any first hand experience or rumors from either reliable or unreliable sources about any of the members at any time in their history?

However Matt Gryta, crime reporter for The Buffalo News, points out many believe the Magaddino Crime Family has "expanded into the new millennium through telemarketing, pump and dump stock scams and internet pornography with the “family” expanding its operations nationwide."

Read more: Buffalo crime family https://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Buffalo+crime+family&item_type=topic#ixzz5BrgRGAqb
Follow us: @RevolvyEarth on Twitter | RevolvyEarth on Facebook

Thats a quote from Grytas book

Joe Todaro Sr. stopped the family getting into narcotics as best he could (although members began to get involved in drugs when he semi-retired to Florida), which means the Buffalo mob never had a big foothold in that market....

Another contradiction, look at the bust in 1990 where all those guys were crossing the river in boats with a shitload of drugs....Buffalo family had tons of dealers in the 80s and 90s on the streets.

Tell me when to stop Nicky

200 made members at its height? Buffalo had a little over 100 made members. Already posted what happened after Appalachian and onwards which led to Bufalino having his own family, Rochester splitting, Gaspare and Peter Magaddino went to the Bonanno family.

BensonHURST, the Rizzutos split from the Bonanno family after Joe flipped, before that they were still mad for George being killed that they hardly had activities with the Bonanno family. The Cotroni faction remained with the Bonanno family, so both Bonanno and Buffalo had crews on both sides of the boarder.

Nicky,

If the Feds and local LE have basically written them off a long time ago and the news/press primary source is LE, so its not hard to understand that they share the same opinion more times than not.

But if that is the case that would mean they are not looking...
RIGHT??

If they are NOT looking how can they really see what's going on??

You see my point??

Would relying on them make the most sense?

Has anyone high up flipped that was really in the know of how many made men they have/had?

How do they really know what's going on in Canada?

case in point look at the Violi's LE stated they have big international connections and locally they had guys on the police force in their pocket, that is influence.

Before this bust what did the FBI have to say about Violi?

Never ever hears anything about them
Just recently with the Rizzuto's that one of them were seen meeting with someone the day before Nicolo was taken out.

So one of my points if they had nothing on Violi is it conceivable there are others running around they have nothing on either because they were not looking because they thought they were dead?

I never said they weren't involved. They just didn't have a huge foothold.

According to FBI informer Fred Saia, both Todaro Sr. and Jr. made it very clear that the family was not to deal drugs. In fact, Saia claimed he was proposed for membership in the Buffalo mob, but his name was left off the lists when he was caught dealing cocaine in 1985.

Todaro Sr. was anti-drugs. It could have been a Paul Castellano situation, where he still took huge kickbacks from Patsy Conte, but he was nevertheless unfriendly towards drug-dealers in his family. When Todaro Sr. semiretired to Florida in the late 80s, it seems this stance changed with Todaro Jr.

Can I make myself any clearer here? There are always drug dealers in every family, but Todaro Sr. certainly didn't like it, meaning that drug dealers probably had a hard time advancing in the family.

Do you get what I mean?

Giacomo;

They unofficially broke off from the Bonnano's after Georgie, that is why Massino sent members of his admin to bring them back into the fold on 3 different occasions and they kept getting dismissed.

Vito rizzutto told Vitale "We are like our own Family"

Massino had no idea how many guys they had in Canada
Vito was making guys/whacking guys without even telling massino

They offered Vito a Capo position he declined and said ask my dad.

If that is not a F.U. every which way under the SUN I don't know what is?

All they did was send some money on a monthly basis to keep the peace.

After Massino flipped they outright told the Bonnano's to take a hike officially.

They refused to acknowledge Vinny Gorgeous as boss because he was appointed by Massino.

How do you consider them a part of the family if:
1) they don't take orders from you.
2) make their own guys with out asking or telling you.
3) Kill guys without asking or telling you.
4) The boss has no idea what rackets you have or do not have.

Were they with the Bonnano's??

The feds certainly didn't pull that 45 number out of their ass. Why do you automatically assume they had more? Unless information comes out disproving it, we have to go with the feds on the 45 made men figure. Feds love to trump things up to get more funding and present more of a threat, which means that 45 might have even been tipping the scales.

Canadian police have known about Violi for years, as well as his crime group. His arrest did not present some mystical new figure.

Someone wrote that on Wikipedia linking the quote from his book, which Wikipedia seems as "dubious," meaning that they don't know if it actually is from that book. If you're right, you're right, but can anyone actually see if that quote is in the book? Wikipedia isn't so sure that it comes from the book. Why would Matt's book about John Gotti tell us about what the Buffalo mob is into now? I haven't read the book so don't crucify me if I'm wrong here...

Don't act like you're winning this argument by linking all sorts of articles from the 80s and 90s. Nothing you have presented indicates the Buffalo mob is still active.
I have never disputed the Canadian-Buffalo drug pipeline. I am disputing that the upper-echelon of the family were behind it or wanted to be involved in it. Which Joe Todaro Sr. made pretty clear when he had the no-drugs policy.

And @Bensonhurst. The argument that 'because the feds aren't keeping huge tabs on them means they are wrong' is a valid point. But the feds are certainly more in the know than an internet poster who might not even be from Buffalo.

To add to my response to this.
Violi was a Canadian. So why would the FBI need to know anything about him? The FBI didn't bust him. The Canadians did.

Maybe you're referring to what Canadian LE knew about Violi. Well, they knew as far back as 2002 that the Violis had cops on their payroll. Cheers to Wiseguy from Black Hand for linking this article: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/halton-police-report-1.4404934

I like how you gloss over all my questions and logic that rivals the same logic you have been trying to use for a month now. So, yes I would be winning in that regard, your version has holes just like every ones version.

Coppolas simply a provacteur with hidden agendas and Ill search for the actual insert for Grytas book.

And clearly no one in any Mafia family listened to any of the bosses when it came to drug dealing. Every family was in to it since the beginning. So for Todaro to try and halt it was in vein as Im sure he knew if thats what was actually by him according to a rat or a journalist.

And yea I may or may not be from Buffalo, just like you may or may not be from Tampa. Difference is your an article reader, which means you could be from anywhere.

The Feds are more in the know just like they were able to uncover and prevent Septembe 11th when it was right under their noses.

Youre oblivious to government failure and lack of intel because you have faith in corrupt systems that in turn
exaggerate and misunderstand and subsequently help you with your narrative. Not all Americans believe what they read in articles or what their government tells them knowing they have inherent flaws and make mistakes like all other humans do.

The FBI and RCMP always have joint operations on international peoples and would want to know because he is part of the Buffalo Family and is 60 miles from our border and would want him identified in their files, thats why. Logic.