i know it's probably the most talked-about subject
and most of you guys hate read it (btw i don't really know if it's a question or just something that i want to share)
i always think about what would happen if fat tony wasn't in prison while the hit occurred,
maybe even gotti and gravano wouldn't even have the balls to even think of making a move against paul if fat tony was around
and if they did it while he's on the streets i am sure he would have get them whacked and not by a car bomb
he would wait for the right moment and kill them.

and please don't bust my balls
if you don't like reading it then go on and don't respond though i can't really see what there is to respond because i just shared my thoughts.

We can only speculate. But I think Gotti would have done it anyway.For what it's worth, the legend is Gotti and his crew thought they were living on borrowed time after Neil Dellacroce passed away. If you think you will be hit anyway...

I don't think it would have made any difference,since Salerno was only the "front boss" who served to deflect the heat off of the Chin,who was the actual Boss of the Genovese Family. This was an open secret in the New York Mafia,and if Gotti wasn't afraid of the Chin,he sure as heck wasn't going to be afraid of Fat Tony. This only serves to show how blatantly stupid and arrogant Gotti was. He really believed that once he became Boss,no other Family would dare make a move on him. If not for a very lucky coincidence, Gotti would have been blasted into the phantom zone.

Don't some say that Lombardi was still the official boss of the Genovese up until his death and Gigante wasn't the de facto boss until late 80s?

My understanding is that Lombardo stepped down around 1981 or so and named Chin Boss and then Chin named Salerno as front Boss.

funzi tieri died march 31 1981 i bet at his wake or funeral is around when lombardo steps down and chin takes over officialy. just all my guess. with funzi tieri under indictment all of 1980 then dying out on bail it makes sense that when chin took over maybe even christmas 1980

funzi tieri was lomarbardos underboss and street boss around 1974 till he gets indicted late 79 early 80ty. then chin becomes underboss and takes over 81 maybe when tieri dies. he taps fat tony out of semi retirement and he becomes front boss. fish cafaro testified the whole stucture who was what when hes was inducted in 1974 he said it was officiated by tieri the underboss and fat tony the consig at the time. i think the consig spot changed alot in the 70tys like rotating yearly

If Gotti etc weren't afraid of Chin I don't think they would have been afraid of Fat Tony. And if Fat Tony was still on the street I don't think it would have made much difference. Gotti already had the Genovese and Luchese family gunning for him.



Don't know who says that but Vincent Cafaro testified that in 1981 Salerno had a stroke and was taken down as boss and Lombardo retired leaving Chin as the official boss.

That's what I read Salerno was retired and Chin put him back as front boss

Nowhere have a I read of any NY guys being scared of Tony
Chin yes nothing about Tony

If they made the move knowing at the time chin was the commission enforcer
And basically said FU to him

I don't think Tony would have made any difference

I always wondered why is Chin was really all that powerful why he didn't just put a formal hit on Gotti

he did it back door behind the sceeens almost like he was afraid

He used Gas as the fall guy

My understanding is that Lombardo stepped down around 1981 or so and named Chin Boss and then Chin named Salerno as front Boss.
From what I heard on the streets & know back in those days when I was a heavy hitter( no pun intended)...Benny Eggs had Alot 2 say & do around 79...80..etc..this guy was/is no joke...he may have settled down now that he way fuckin'old....but my old friend Salvie Testa swore by him..2. say the least, he (Benny Eggs) oversaw when Nicky became boss,,keeping everyone @ bay .

After the Car bombing and the death of Frankie DeCicco in 86 , It became almost impossible to get to John Gotti only bc the FBI was on him 24/7. Remember that guy that took a shot at Gotti outside the Bergin and was later found in a body bag in a candy store on Staten Island ? The guy who took the shot at Gotti was tied to the Genovese family thru a relation. Bobby Boriello was said to have shot the triggerman after he missed Gotti. Gotti was to well protected by the FBI and was on high alert after these two failed attempts on him. That is when the Genovese started killing Gotti's guy's (Lino , Boriello) . Then in the late 80's Bobby Manna was trying to kill John and Gene and was convicted for it. John gets arrested in 1990 and now he was impossible to get to. Truth is Gotti was saved by the FBI or he would of been murdered also.

To the original question: I don't think Fat Tony would have made any difference because, as others have said, Gotti had reason to believe in kill or be killed. But: Gotti and his close circle had reason to think they could get away with the Big Paul hit because the other Dons resented Castellano for disparaging remarks he made about them on tapes the FBI made and released. More important, the Dons were afraid he'd make a deal with the Feds on his RICO rap and rat them out in order to spend his last years with his Colombian house maid and lover, Gloria Olarte.

Fat tonys muscle at that late sate of his life was cafaro. Hes on tape ordering cafaro do this slap that guy. Cafaro then used i think cubans and pueto ricans to keep all the numbers places paying. Bet fat tony didnt loose any sleep when paul died. He knew he wasnt the boss either so who would harm him. Read chin didnt like a boss being killed cause it could happen to him same with amuso after he becomes boss in dec86.

The guy that took a shot a Gotti they threw in a van and brought him to STATEN Island and left him dead in Joe The Cat Lafortes basement of his candy store.
Not sure who actually pulled the trigger
I know Joe Watts was in on it.

Gas had the Mafia Cops kill Lino
I think for Gas this was personal he thought Gotti was in on the plot to kill him
So he was out to get him since then and he was such a deranged maniac he just wanted to kill everyone.

And it was Gas again that killed Boriello

I understand Gotti was hard to touch
But back then when a HIT was ordered they used to send car loads with shooters, back UPS and back ups to the back ups.

I am just saying if Chin was the Almighty why didn't he just put out official hits on the guys who killed Castallano, he had the commission behind him.
Why not take out Sammy
Could of taken out a Gotti as a message any one of them
Jr. Pete

In my opinion he was SCARED if he tried to hit Gotti and failed with Genobeese shooters what would have happened.
So he went back door with GAS, sneak attack

When the Philly guys killed a boss
Look what happens to them.

The Philly guys had it comin' U kill a boss u get it next..Scarfo was only cleaning house as he was expected to do..as the scumbag that he was,,he enjoyed that part of the job.. many yrs. ago ,,I met him.. & his reputation preceded him ...a real dickhead w/a HUGE ego.

They killed the boss with the Genovese boss's authorization. If somebody theoretically should have had it coming, it would have been Tieri, Gigante and whoever else did sanction it. Caponigro and the other Philly guys were just tools cleverly played by the Genovese.

My point was more with Chin

I was saying I have heard so many times Gotti was scared of Chin

I am saying if you think about it

Chinn and his crew were the commission(s) enforcer(s)

When the Philly guys killed a boss for whatever the reason was look how Chin did them.
When Gotti and crew killed the "BOSS of BOSSES" look how Chin handled the situation.

To me it seemed like Chin was scared to take on the Gotti crew directly.

Does anyone agree with this?

I agree with your logic but isn’t the only reason we know the Genovese were involved because Phil L flipped? So at the time they weren’t openly involved.

I don’t think he was really scared of Gotti it was more fear of what happens when you openly kill a NY boss.....

Killing a NY Boss is different then killing the Philadelphia Boss....

Would the Gambinos try to retaliate? What would happen to the rackets that were shared? How much heat would it bring from the feds? Would the guy who actually did it flip?

Plus it sets the president that it is okay to openly kill a NY Boss.

He took out the guys in Philly as an enforcer for the commission
So all the families knew what he did I would imagine.

When I say just go after him I dont mean so that the public would know more so LCN would know.

Killing a N.Y. boss is different but he did try to kill a N.Y. boss and he did actually kill a N
Y. Under boss

Fear of any repercussions is saying he was afraid?

I said I basically agree with you but you just said yeah the commission knew they were cleaning up the guys who killed the Philly boss.

But the commission didn’t know that the Genovese tricked the Philly guys and made them the falls guys.

So it didn’t appear as though the Genovese were behind taking out a boss....they were seen as the ones who wiped out the guys who broke the rules (killed a boss)...

So for them to next go and openly kill a NY Boss... then the expectation would be those guys who took out the boss get killed.

Your logic does makes sense but I just don’t think he was scared of Gotti.

I doubt Chin feared anyone, maybe Gotti was just very cautious. And how would they kill Gotti anyway? The FBI and the reporters were all over Gotti. Maybe that was why Gotti seemed to live his life in the public eye, opposite of the way Chin lived. Are they going to shoot someone knowing he's probably being followed by cops and reporters?

I think the chin didn't want to hit john also because he didn't want to start any war.
Vincent was a boss who seem to really care about the family but also respecting the rules
I guess he let it go eventually.

You know is ironic is that at that meeting Gotti and Chin had
Gotti was happy he made Jr and Chin abused him about that.

Look where that situation is today

Chins son is facing almost double digits and Jr. walked away from the life.

I hear what you are saying about Gotti and Chin BensonHURST. I don't think Chin feared Gotti, but he would have feared an all out war between the Genovese and Gambinos if he didn't pull it off properly. That's why he didn't "officially" sanction the hit. Even if the other Commission members backed Chin, Gotti etc wouldn't have taken it lying down and it would have been a war.

The only reason I bring that up is because I keep seeing other peoples opinion saying Gotti was afraid of Chin

I don't think Gotti was afraid of anyone

He killed the Boss of Bosses
And went home to his house and went to sleep

The other guys went into hiding

Why didn't Gotti ever take a shot at Chin or anyone else from the Westside ? , Why did the FBI tell Gotti that his life was in jeopardy ? Accounts of Gotti's reaction to being told this was absolute fear. Bobby Manna"s crew was caught on tape plotting to murder John and Gene Gotti and no retaliation? Castellano was killed bc Gotti thought that Paul was going to strike first yet when the threat came from the WS Gotti did nothing about it. Chin had Casso doing hits for him , why open him self up to any indictments when u can have some one else take the heat ? Chin out thought and out classed Gotti in all matters LCN. Never heard Chin's voice on any wire tap. Gotti's caught on tape admitting to Murders ! Danny Marino and Jimmy Brown were conspiring with Chin and Frankie DeCicco had told Gravano that we will give Gotti a year and if he don't work out we will clip him. That being said I will give Gotti respect for doing what he felt he needed to do with Paul. Paul was no Chin.

Gotti made some mistakes
However, the feds spent $100,000,000. "ONE HUNDRED MILLION" to take down Gotti.

Thats.more then spent on a few small.wars over throwing goat's.

No one could with stand that amount of resources.

He got caught on tape in an apartment that he
1) Had swept for bugs
2) in an apartment that the feds didn t know about for over 50 year.

He shouldn't have spoke about the.murders.

That was all the evidence that had besides Sammy.

My point is he want a babling idiot it was an error judgement on his part.
Yt? 5

Castallano, Ducks, Langella, Persico they all were caught on tape.

Chin should have let Gas kill Pete Savino
Or he should have

That was chins mistake and because of that mistake the feds were able to build the windows case.
That case brought down Chin, Gas and Amuso amoung others.

Who else did Gotti'S tape bring down?
Locasio?

Sorry over throwing governments

So I'm aware that when Neil Dellacroce passed away Paul Castellano didnt show up for the wake and I understand John and Paul weren't getting along also at the time I'm just curious wasn't Castellano on trial or was there just an investigation going on in terms of Castellano wonder if he really didn't wanna be seen at the funeral by the FBI or was it really a fuck you to John by not going eiether way this is what got Castellano Hit in motion for John by Paul not showing up correct?.....Also did Tommy Bilotti show up to the funeral or did have Paul have him not go as well?