It's only been twelve hours Rooster. I had to read up on the articles you linked.



There's union corruption, but there's not a crime family running the union corruption.
Rooster, I have never, ever argued that there are no longer criminals in Buffalo. I'm not trying to argue that the crime rate in Buffalo is now zero because the Todaro crime family is defunct. The crime family was booted out of the unions, and it was very, very effective. Now, NickleCity might argue that the feds are working with the Todaro mob, but I don't think that's what you're arguing, Rooster. At least I hope it's not.


If you read that article, you'll see that nowhere do they try and say the Todaro mob is still active. Nowhere. They refer to it as a "former brutal criminal enterprise." It makes sense that there'd be infighting in that union. It comes as no surprise to me. The feds took it over, they booted the mob out, and then they left, possibly causing the infighting and potential power vaccuum we see here.

Tell me, in what way does that article show any form of mob corruption?


Ok, so no 2005 bust. That's fine. But what is the bust where you said two soldiers were arrested for drugs and guns? And sorry, but I musta missed the 2012 bust, which were the ones I asked for.
That Red State article wasn't a bust. It was a report of a leadership dispute in the union.


They were not mob busts. The Cohen bust was not a Buffalo crime family bust. You are claiming that it was a Buffalo crime family bust, whereas the feds (who actually made the bust), said it was a Lucchese bust. Cohen has never been linked with the Buffalo mob. The feds never mentioned the Buffalo mob. So no, it's not a coincidence. At all.
You can't find the 2005. So that doesn't count.
I don't know which bust was the 2012 bust, but I don't know if you've linked it.

The Ciminelli bust was also not a mob bust. Have you read the indictment? There were no allegations of any sort of Mafia involvement. And if there was any sort of Mafia involvement, you don't think that would have been described by Todd Howe?? Howe was an informant who uncovered the whole thing yet, surprise surprise, he didn't mention the Mafia or organized crime at all. Howe was a key player in the operation. He was the one taking the bribes. He was the one on the take, and later became an undercover informant to take the whole thing down. Howe spilled the beans on everything. You think he'd leave out such a vital detail as Mafia involvement?
The crimes in the Ciminelli bust were related to the bribery of government officials to save money on developments. There is no indication the mob would have anything to do with that. It's a scummy fraud practice that doesn't require some goon to break people's legs. The closest thing that the Mafia got to that case was the fact that Percoco and Howe referred to the bribe payments as "ziti."



Yes, because it's likely that the union still as corrupt aspects. U.S. Attorney Preet Bharara even said that there is a corrupt "show-me-the-money" culture that plagues Albany.


You say the family as a whole as not been touched, but they have. Just not to the extent of other families across America. I agree that Detroit is the most untouched mob family in America today when it comes to law enforcement, but they still get the occasional arrest. Law enforcement doesn't have the capacity or the drive to go after them hard. But arrests are still occasional, and law enforcement has specifically cited that they are still active. It's not comparable to Buffalo. In Detroit the feds acknowledge there is an active mob family, and busts are rare but still happen. In Buffalo, the feds specifically assert that the family is no more, and there are 0 busts. And I mean 0. Rooster's bust show no mob ties, no mention of mob ties, and no mob-related crimes.


The reason people have not had to flip is because nobody has faced serious time. To a mobster, 14 years isn't really that serious. Not a lot of guys flip over 14 years. And in Detroit you have the added aspect that many of the top-ranking guys are related, which is another disincentive to flipping.

But here's the thing. If Rooster is to be believed, and the Ciminelli bust WAS a Todaro crime family bust (despite the feds not saying it was), and last year's bust WAS a Todaro crime family bust, then there HAVE BEEN Buffalo mob informants. Todd Howe, who was (according to Rooster) being bribed by Ciminelli, a mob-backed guy, (Ciminelli and his cronies did bribe Howe, but definitely not with any mob influence). Vincenzo Morena also, who was the catalyst of the indictment and secretly recorded a Bonanno making ceremony.


Yeah, sort of.
I actually haven't seen any evidence whatsoever that the Violis were ever made into the Buffalo mob. And in this recent indictment, they were working instead with the Bonanno crime family, not the Buffalo mob.

But what you are saying is right. If, for the sake of argument, the Violis were once associated with the Todaro mob, they certainly aren't anymore which is why they were working with the Bonannos.



Exactly. There is evidence they were working with the Bonannos, however.

Wait for Nicky....wait for it....I disagree in what you said and the family has a heirarchy and is viable

14 years isnt a lot of time??? Lol, wtf

Earlier in this thread it was that the unions are all cleaned up and now you say that union corruption exists. Cmon now Nicky

Unfortunately you have not a single credible source to back you up, and high-ranking LE officials, federal prosecutors, DAs, feds, acclaimed journalists, a mob historian and a former Buffalo member-turned-informant disagree with you. But please, tell me more about how because you are "from the area" you know more than every single one of these people about the state of the Buffalo mob.
Oh yes, and tell me more about how a Lucchese bust with a guy living in Buffalo constitutes a "Buffalo crime family bust," despite the fact that there is no proof the guy is or was ever associated with the Todaro mob and none of his activities were based in Buffalo. Hey, maybe then I can convince everyone on the forum that Carmine Agnello's 2015 arrest was a Cleveland mob bust.


Not enough to flip over, which was my point. Most made guys can do 14 years easy.


Union corruption still exists, and will always exist. But the unions are all cleaned up FROM MOB INFLUENCE.

Rooster, Nicky won't totally accept that Brian Cohen was on record with Sonny or the Buffalo mob, mainly Sonny were partners with the Lucchese family. He is not completely ruling that out, but he demands proof. So I recommend to just drop it, as we have both said what we had to say on that.

On local 91
Michael Quarcini, Mark Congi, Dominick Dellacio, Albert Celeste, Andy Shomers, Salvatore Spatorico, and Anthony Cerrone are all associates to the Buffalo crime family. Dellacio and Quarcini are two of Niagara Falls top associates.

Back to my original questions you said you'd answered:
First question: Which busts were in 2005, 2010, and 2012?
- For the 2005 bust, you couldn't find anything, for the 2010 bust you cited the arrest of a confirmed Lucchese associate, who was confirmed to be working directly with the Lucchese family and nobody from the Buffalo Mafia. For the 2012 bust you haven't said anything (to the best of my knowledge). You also cited a Ciminelli bust which, despite the fact that there was an undercover informer on the inside, there was not even the slightest hint of mob influence. You also linked a Rochester bust from 2002, which only hurt your argument by saying that the family was "unsuccessfully revived" and only "kind-of" active. You also claimed that Leonard Falzone's brother, a Republican City Council candidate and registered attorney, was using "mob-like" tactics when you linked a forum based around debtors. The forum post you linked was written by a debtor who claimed that Frank was not a real attorney and was pretending to be an attorney to collect debts from a registered loan company. Since he is a real attorney, and I provided proof of that, that argument flies out the window.
Second question: What evidence do you have that Local 210 and Local 91 are still mobbed-up? You claimed that the union was never cleaned up fully cleaned up, but there is no evidence of that other than Ron Fino (who flipped in 1989) saying that the feds could have done more in terms of union control.
- You haven't got anything which suggests the unions are still mobbed up, and you have in fact linked articles that talk about the unions' "former brutal criminal enterprise" pasts. The key word there is "former."
Third queston: I haven't asked this before, but you said James Feliciano was made in 2000, but he was indicted in Feb. 2000? Also, during that time, he lived in Brooklyn.
- You never answered this. Giacomo also said you were wrong.
Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.
Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...
- You havent answered this question. You linked a 2002 article claiming that the Rochester mob was active, with the reputed boss denying it, as if that was supposed to make me think that "Wow, law enforcement was really wrong on that one." You do realize there hasn't been a single boss (excluding rats) to say "Hey, that's me, I'm the boss of the such-and-such family" when asked by press. Is there any universe where he would have acknowledged being the boss of a crime family? Jeez louise.
Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?
- You haven't even attempted to answer this.
Sixth question:
You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY.
- Haven't even touched this one.
Seventh question:
You noted that "Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else." It seems you are implying that corruption is a big factor in why these alleged mobsters aren't getting busted "just like everywhere else." Except "everywhere else" where there is an active mafia family or criminal enterprise, there are busts. If you are implying that corruption in Buffalo is so prevalent that busts are impossible, that is a wild statement. Of course, if you are implying something different then I apologise for the confusion. Any insight?
- You also haven't touched this one.


You claim that the Buffalo crime family's existance has been proven. You said that the 2017 bust proved that the Todaro crime family had rebuilt ties to Canada. Here's your exact quote:
""at Nicky....In order to be rebuilding ties they would have had to lost them, so yes it can overlap. I never said currently losing. The big bust in '90 and the big bust last year prove they, had, and the bust in 03 prove they still had, and then probably lost to an extent, and somewhere in between, they rebuilt.""
Which is a complete lie. Last year's bust does not, at all, prove that the Canadian wing of the family has rebuilt ties to Buffalo. That's a complete fabrication. All we know at the moment is that members of the Todaro crime family were arrested in Canada. Remember, members of crime families can be indicted long after the family they are involved in is defunct.
You also explicitly said to Bensonhurst, when he first asked about whether the family was active ""(I am new here however, if LE the press and.indixtements are acceptable
Don't we have all of that with Buffalo now?
Since the arrest
?)""
you said, and I quote:
""Ofcourse, its already proven.""
It's not proven.
You state things as fact, with no proof to back it up. It misleads people. If it is a rumor, than say so. You plainly tried to say that the Cohen bust was a Buffalo mob bust, which (at first) mislead me until I researched and found out that Cohen does not have ties to the family and the bust was a Lucchese bust through and through.

I know this may be a dumb question, but what is ghosting?

Here is what we know:

1. What the Canadians call the Todaro Crime Family is active in Hamilton, NF, & MTA in Canada.
2. Canadian papers regular talk about the Luppino, Papalia, and even the Mustitano crime families (at least former) connections with Buffalo.
3. Buffalo has traditionally been, and is likely still, an important city for drug trafficking from Canada which has been dominated by Italian OC.

Questions:
1. Is the Todaro Crime Family that Canadian papers (and even the US Attorney in the Eastern District of NY) refer to an umbrella term for these GTA 'Ndrangheta families that are working together-like they did for Magaddino and Todaro in Buffalo?
2. Is Buffalo still a key city in drug trafficking routes from GTA to USA?
3. If it is, are these crime families in GTA using anyone from Buffalo or just their own people in crossing the border and trafficking through WNY to other destinations?
4. If they are using people from Buffalo, are those from Buffalo acting on their own or are the members/associates of the Canadian families in the GTA or a family here in Buffalo or both?
5. If they are using people from Buffalo where does the power resided? Toronto or Buffalo or Shared? Or nowhere because these are "independent contractors" so to speak in Buffalo?

My Thoughts:
1. I think it would be foolish to think there were not "mafioso" or at least "people" acting on their own from Buffalo that GTA mafioso are using to facilitate the trafficking on this side of the border.
2. There has been such a large mafia presence in WNY and such a large Italian poplulation and even ZIPS, that I cannot imagine there are no mafioso left--but could be.
3. If their are people in Buffalo facilitating trafficking of this scale, they have to be organized.
4. This "organization" on the WNY side may very well be submissive to the families that are working together in GTA (Think Todaro Crime Family), or even the Bananno family, but their is an organization.
5. The Feds have to know this...Thus when Adam Cohen the agent in charge of the FBI field office in WNY tells the Buffalo News the mafia in WNY is all but dead, last March... This is misinformation! ... They hope is the organization on this side (whatever it is) gets sloppy and caught. Maybe they feed this information to the media in WNY because they know of the O'Tremens investigation in Canada is heating up. Of course the media and Dan Herbek eat it up, because they/he want to celebrate the idea that their journalism exposed and rid WNY of the mafia and its influence.

You are right about that--and the Mayor of Lockport at that time (Tucker)--did all he could to help Dellacio form Lockport do less time.

Lockport Man Sentenced

The articles about this local 91 case never connect them to the mafia in WNY, but suggest they are associates and that we call them "wannabes" and "draw our own conclusions" about their connection to the mob. Here is the quote:



Here is the link to the entire article:

Niagara Falls "Wannabes"

Nicky did you see my articles from the weekly Standard and Washington times that also suggested the LIUNA national and even its Local 210 in Buffalo weren't really cleaned up... It isn't just Fino who suggested it.

Finally, someone that knows the history. A lot of people don't know this history, because they don't really understand how powerful Magaddino was in Buffalo.

Nicky do you really believe either of the Todaro's had gone completely legit well before 1998, and "shunned any contact with [their] former life" at that time?

Nicky, Was Ciminelli forced to serve as a trustee for local 210?

Actually the Herbeck contradicts himself: "Herbeck in a March 2017 article quotes Fino as stating: "Joe Todaro Jr. moved on from the mob many years ago," and that "...there are a few remnants of the mob that still exist in Buffalo,...but it’s not the same.”--Mob in WNY Dead-March 2017 However, in a 2012 articles has Fino saying mob influence was never fully cleaned up from local 210-because the Capitano Brothers are back in control--The FBI's Inside Guy--Fino 2012 So Fino doesn't say the Mob in buffalo is dead... As a matter of fact in his 2012 book he writes"



Additionally Nicky, in a previous post you say Peter Capitano Jr. isn't the Peter Capitano Ron refers to in the Buffalo News article I mentioned above, he refers to Peter Sr... But you are wrong. Fino writes:



He writes this about Peter's brother Sam:



To me it is obvious that Herbeck has contradicted himself and forgot about his 2012 article with Fino when he wrote the March article about the Buffalo Mob being dead. Also, do you find it strange that Herbeck's March article is basically the same as Lee Copolla's from 1998? If "The Arm" was withered and dead in '98.... why is it new that is dead in 2017. Here is the link to Copolla's article: Lee Copolla's Article "Whithered Hand--1998"

And if, as Fino writes, there was a front boss for the family in the late 2000's/2010's their is an organized administration in Buffalo, even if they do share power with the Canadian factions. Or I will even give you that the Canadian factions has the power now..., but Buffalo is still active.

Great stuff guys

The longer winded that Nicky gets in his posts the more he prays he is right and none of what we are saying is credible.

Its ok Nicky, Localzo is still the boss of Tampa, at least we know thats the truth

Honestly I thought Nicky was being a real hard ass with you guys

However, yesterday I read through the links of the articles that were posted I think by Rooster

I find one thing very strange

Let me say I am not all saying I do not believe you guys
But here are my thoughts

Please let me know your thoughts about my thoughts:

I think we all agree that reporters will a lot of times exaggerate a mob connection because lets face it everyone loves a good mob story
So even if there is none or very little
A reported will add that to the story

I looked at all those articles and yes there were Italians commiting crimes, that were typically LCN crimes.

No mention of mob ties?

Why is that I am curios to know?

The other thing is if you google and please bear with me I am new and not the best at research that is all I know "GOOGLE"
But if you google Buffalo Mafia arrests

You get nothing for atleast the last 10 year or more.
Again why would that be?

Every other state that has an active mafia family has indictments and new articles.

I am curios to know why you think that is the case??

So the FBI states they are dead..OK
What about the state?

What about the drug dealers that got pinched and are looking at 10+ years that are doing business with LCN guys that are willing to flip to get out from under the jail time?

None of them either?
No CI's

No one has gotten shaken down and has run to the cops/feds?

Where are the gambling indictments?

Where are the drug dealers that also LCN
How come they haven't gotten pinched?

Here is what we know:

1. What the Canadians call the Todaro Crime Family is active in Hamilton, NF, & MTA in Canada.
2. Canadian papers regular talk about the Luppino, Papalia, and even the Mustitano crime families (at least former) connections with Buffalo.
3. Buffalo has traditionally been, and is likely still, an important city for drug trafficking from Canada which has been dominated by Italian OC.

Questions:
1. Is the Todaro Crime Family that Canadian papers (and even the US Attorney in the Eastern District of NY) refer to an umbrella term for these GTA 'Ndrangheta families that are working together-like they did for Magaddino and Todaro in Buffalo?
2. Is Buffalo still a key city in drug trafficking routes from GTA to USA?
3. If it is, are these crime families in GTA using anyone from Buffalo or just their own people in crossing the border and trafficking through WNY to other destinations?
4. If they are using people from Buffalo, are those from Buffalo acting on their own or are the members/associates of the Canadian families in the GTA or a family here in Buffalo or both?
5. If they are using people from Buffalo where does the power resided? Toronto or Buffalo or Shared? Or nowhere because these are "independent contractors" so to speak in Buffalo?

My Thoughts:
1. I think it would be foolish to think there were not "mafioso" or at least "people" acting on their own from Buffalo that GTA mafioso are using to facilitate the trafficking on this side of the border.
2. There has been such a large mafia presence in WNY and such a large Italian poplulation and even ZIPS, that I cannot imagine there are no mafioso left--but could be.
3. If their are people in Buffalo facilitating trafficking of this scale, they have to be organized.
4. This "organization" on the WNY side may very well be submissive to the families that are working together in GTA (Think Todaro Crime Family), or even the Bananno family, but their is an organization.
5. The Feds have to know this...Thus when Adam Cohen the agent in charge of the FBI field office in WNY tells the Buffalo News the mafia in WNY is all but dead, last March... This is misinformation! ... The hope is the organization on this side (whatever it is) gets sloppy and caught. Maybe they feed this information to the media in WNY because they know of the O'Tremens investigation in Canada is heating up. Of course the media and Dan Herbek eat it up, because they/he want to celebrate the idea that their journalism exposed and rid WNY of the mafia and its influence.

Personally, i dont believe the actual Buffalo faction to be involved in drugs at higher quantities anyways.

And a lot of underlings or potential CIs would only have a chance to snitch on that illegal activity not truly knowing the intricacies of loans, gambling, labor fraud, pension skimming

I think that its real simple, theyve managed to stay way under the radar and are quasi legit....buuut there still is a heairachy

Giacomo just posted that the Local 91 bust jn fact contained associates, which I didnt know

I believe that the same thing happened in Buffalo, that happened in NYC although on a smaller scale.

Law enforcement resources shifted to terrorism and gangs and then the family was able to stabilize and increase membership and reassert its influence in Canada or vice versa, as Giacomo stated in an earlier post.

Again, personally, from what I hear and the recent bust last year and even the busts I have mentioned as being connected to the family show a viable family, I have no vested interest in them existing or not existing

Annnd there is holes in all our stories on this forum, even when citing sources we deem to be credible, which includes law enforcement and journalists

Listen I am not trying to give anyone a hard time.

I personally think anything is POSSIBLE

I am just baffled as to why the news reports would just not mention anything mafia related

Would you guys admit that is is very very strange
What would be the motive

And again Nicky, wasn't saying:

1) That there are no mobsters left
2) That whoever was left was not commiting crime

What he is saying is that there is no formal structure

You have a made guy he is never unmade per se
However, if he is lending someone money he is doing it on his own at this point.

There is no one to kick anything up to.

And guys do retire
Is it possible that Todaro because he has all the Pizza money and business

Said ok I do not want to die in the can

i don't need the money

I am done

Would that be so unheard of?

He has the means to walk away and he just decieded it was best for him to do so.

Again anything is possible.

At this point I guess time will tell.

Thank you for sharing all that you guys have.

Oh believe me, I get what Nicky is saying. I see why people outside Buffalo would think there is nothing left in WNY. There are times I have wondered if there is really a structured family do to the lack of indictments/news the last 10 years. But I've heard too much from people I know... clergy, undertakers, restauranteurs, and retired law enforcement that tell me otherwise. (And I know this is hearsay, can't be proven, and any yahoo can say they know somebody who knows--I get it!)

Todaro could certainly be retired... He has the money... However, I disagree with the Lee Coppola article from '98 where he suggests Todaro had retired from organized crime and gone legit many years earlier than '98... FBI even said he didn't "retire" till 2006.

I am just trying to prove that you can't trust the papers (another example Herbeck's Buffalo News articles where his Fino quotes don't add up.

Next, you have Matt Gyrta and George Karalus in their Book, The Real Teflon Don,, who say NY state couldn't trust the FBI... so they had to set up the "Forrest Avenue Boys" to fight the mob in Buffalo, because the FBI was inept or in bed with the mob. This was the precursor and template to NY States Organized Crime Task force.

Then there is Buffalo Lawyer William Gary Iannacone who makes another good case why the FBI in WNY can't be trusted and perhaps explain why the FBI was appeared to by "inept." He alleges in great detail the FBI used the mob in the MKUltra experiments. (Bensonhurst I think I am the one that you thought posted a weird article not Rooster.)

Admittedly the MKUltra and Mob connection seems weird... but man does Iannacone have documented evidence of Buffalo LCN and the FBI being in cahoots. He even has a tape where a US Attorney admits the FBI has dropped the ball in pursuing the murder of one of his friends. His name was Thomas Martin, and he was murdered by Iannacone's uncle Joe Pezzino, who was a made man. Ianacone writes:



Here is a link to the tape:

LISTEN TO THIS TAPE RECORDING
Iannacone with Assistant US Attorney

LISTEN TO THIS TAPE RECORDING
Here is a tape recorded of Iannacone talking to Betty Pezzino about Joe Pezzino and the murder Thomas Martin and others. Tape of Iannacone talking about his Uncle Joe murdering his friend Thomas.

You asked why no arrests in last 10 years... maybe its because of the collusion between the FBI and Buffalo LCN. Take a peek at this article by Dan Herbeck in 1989:



The article suggests buffalo continues to have a dismal conviction rate when it comes to organized crime. A Buffalo News story of May 7, 1989 is titled "15 deaths, 1 disappearance linked to mob since 1974: Arrests were made in only 1 case" and lists the following murder victims: Albert J. Billiteri, Jr.; Frank D'Angelo; William Esposito; Robert H. Reingold; a 64 yr-old "made man" who the FBI would not identify but say "may have been forced to hang himself under the threat that his family would be murdered if he did not"; Joseph C. Vara; John C. Certo; Peter A. Piccolo; Raymond Townsend (Local 91); William J. "Billy the Kid" Sciolino (Local 210); Carl J. Rizzo (Local 210); Albert J. "Big Al" Monaco; Joseph San Fratello (Local 210); Robert DiGiulio; Alan R. Levine; John Pinelli.

Could it the arrest rate be so low then, because the FBI is was working with the Buffalo Crime Family as Iannacone suggests?

I don't know but it is good question and could be the reason we so so few arrests today--could it not?

Even more, this article and nearly all of these deaths/disappearances occur while the FBI has an inside guy working for them--Ron Fino! How can that be?

You'd think their inside guy could have gave them at least a few leads that would have led to arrests. I do anyway. Especially given the fact that these guys were all in Local 210 as we hear in the second tape.

Here is the thing there are a ton of unsolved mob murders from the 60,70's and 80's it was very common then.

And there are no federal arrests or state arrests
Come on you can have an FBI agent or two on the take

It happened in NYC and Boston

The whole FBI and the whole State
Every Cop, DA

You can have a cop
The whole polic force
?

You cannot think that is possible in 2018
??

What does it matter if Todaro went legit in 98 or 2006

We are talking about today

For arguments sake lets say he went legit in 2007

That is 11 years ago

How does that impact this debate?

Certain members of it are still active. They never claimed the entity as a whole is active, only that certain members of the family were arrested. That doesn't mean the organization or the entity as a whole is active. There are numerous examples of guys, even made, from defunct families that continue to operate independently long after the family has ceased to exist.

The Musitanos murdered the capo and top second-in-command of the Todaro crime family's Canadian crew (the Papalia crew) in 1997 and there was no immediate retribution from the Papalias. The Luppinos, despite once being close to the Todaros, were also a separate faction vying for power.

Yes, and the double murder in 1997 proves that the Musitanos were able to dismantle the Todaro crime family's control in Canada, and then (most likely) take over the valuable drug connection the Papalias owned.


No. It refers to members of the Todaro crime family in Canada. Guys that were made before 1997. Think about it. The Papalias were "dead as charity" by 1997, and to the victor goes the spoils. It makes sense that former Papalia members would have worked alongside, or partnered their lucrative rackets, with the powerful Musitanos or Luppinos.

Probably.

There are probably guys from up north in Buffalo to facilitate things. Or maybe the Todaro-Papalia members, now partnering with the GTA families, have caught up with Todaro guys in Buffalo to help out on behalf of the outfits that took over the decimated Papalia clan.

The Todaro crime family was never able to control or utilize the drug trade like other families in America or even the families up north.

The Musitanos wiped out the Buffalo's crew in Canada with the double-murder of Papalia and his top lieutenant. There was no subsequent gang war on behalf of Buffalo or the Papalias. So it's most likely Canadian associates helping facilitate things down there.


I agree.

The feds were able to wipe them out. The mafia in WNY did not have the same sort of power that other families in New York and New Jersey had. In Magaddino's era they certainly did though. The lucrative power-bases they did have (the UNIONS in particular) were very successfully wiped out by the feds, meaning that the Buffalo mob family lost its prized rackets, and had not utilized other rackets like drugs or gambling to the extent that NY families had. Last year's Buffalo News article analyses the many reasons why the Buffalo mob is no more, citing feds, prosecutors, mob experts, DAs, etc.

Yes. But as we have seen, the Musitanos cut the heads off Buffalo's Canadian operation and there was no resistance.

There is quite possibly a small but organized Canadian presence in Buffalo to facilitate the drug trade. The Todaro crime family is not a Canadian GTA family. It had a crew in Canada, which was eliminated by the Musitanos.

Wait... what? You've really lost me there...
Why would Adam Cohen concede the mob in WNY is dead, if he is hoping that they get caught? That's a pretty big lie to uphold. Remember that most news outlets, including the Buffalo News, have LE sources on the inside that leak information (generally information that the FBI doesn't mind leaking, but still).
Also, denying the existence of a Mafia can only hurt future cases. I don't think that the feds have ever used the strategy of denying an organization crime group exists, whilst trying to make a case against them. It's a counter-productive move.
Also, the Buffalo News and the Niagara Falls Reporter have never patted themselves on the back for ridding WNY of the mafia. The feds did that themselves. It wasn't the Buffalo News that pressured the feds to go after the Buffalo mob, and the Buffalo News has never claimed otherwise. The feds in Buffalo followed the trend in the rest of the country to go after the mafia, and the media followed.

EDIT: This comment is only responding to the one comment Nickle City made. I haven't read the rest of the thread yet, so bear with me.

This article was written back when the mob was still around, although definitely on its last legs. So it's not a stretch to say these guys were wannabes.

I must have missed those ones. I'll look back through the thread.

Joe Todaro Sr. had been semi-retired since the late 80s and living in Florida most of the time. I doubt Joe Todaro Jr. completely shunned his former life, but I believe that he made more money with his rapidly-growing pizza business than with the remnants of the Todaro mob. By this point his union control had completely gone because his two guys that were running things for him, Gerace and Capitano, were gone. Capitano's sons weren't, but they don't have a single black mark to their name and you can bet that the feds were all over those two sons during the big cleanup that lasted till 2006.

He wouldn't have been able to succeed in the industry as much as he did otherwise. The mob ran construction pretty hard back then, and Ciminelli's opportunities wouldn't have blossomed as much as they did without the corrupt role he served. So, in a sense, yes, he was forced to work for the mob or on behalf of the mob to be as successful as he was.

I'll be answering the following part of the thread next.

Just shows you can't trust what is written in the papers...

Iannacone seems to think so.... and I think it is improbable, but not impossible. Have you listened to his tapes...

Good find NickleCity. I think in 2012, Mike Hudson also wondered who was going to take over following Todaro Sr.'s death, but conceded that there wasn't much left to take over and he wondered who the hell would want the job. So it seems that in 2012, the media wasn't sure what to think of the Todaro crime family. Fino included. But by 2017 these same reporters, backed up by LE, prosecutors, etc., as well as Fino, declared the family as dead.
1997: Buffalo reporters note this year as the time when the Canadian faction died. "Dead as charity," according to Mike Hudson.
1998: Reporters and feds conceded the Buffalo mob was withering away, almost dead.
2012: Reporters weren't sure about the mob's state, although conceded there wasn't much left. Fino (who publically flipped in 1989), speculated on who he believed was in charge. The feds didn't have much to say.
2017: Reporters, Fino, law enforcement, prosecutors and mob experts conceded the Buffalo mob was dead.


[quote]
It can't be the same Sam Capitano. The current Local 210 Sam Capitano is 47, meaning that he was a teenager when Ron Fino went into hiding after flipping.
The Peter Capitano that was an enforcer for Joe Todaro Jr. and Victor Sansanese died in 2017. That Peter Capitano was booted out of the unions in the 1990s. Today's Peter Capitano is 51, meaning he would have been 22 when Fino flipped. Believe me, at that age Peter Capitano, 22, was not in any sort of leadership role per the Todaros. This means that Fino has his wires crossed, and is probably referring to Peter's father, Peter Sr., who definitely was an associate of Todaro Jr. and probably Sansanese, although was kicked out of the union in the 90s and never came back.


That is speculation on Fino's part. Fino does not know whether the family is active or inactive post-1989, but those were Fino's thoughts on who the administration would be if the family were still active.