Sorry, I misspoke.
Which side of the law are your sources from? And, if it's reliable LE sources, this has a good chance of being brought up in court, no? Since Joe C was indicted two months ago...

Any other names? Genovese capos?

Joe Saunders was Joe C father nickname. Joe C took control of his father's crew around August of 2013. Buffalo made 2, Utica made 2, and Hamilton made 2. The making ceremonies happened sometime between fall of 2012 to spring of 2013 for Buffalo. It was a big push for the family as by 2000 and on they were making one member ever two to three years in downsizing the family. My sources are UW, bookies, rounders, and pushers.

No, no other capos were mentioned, only Joe Saunders from Brooklyn.

Sorry, Giacomo, I assumed you were talking about Joe C because Joe Saunders was in prison at the time, very sick, and Joe C was sometimes called Joe Saunders Jr.

Anyways, why do you think Joe Saunders would have approved any sort of making ceremony? He was, like I said earlier, in prison (serving 15 years for murder conspiracy) and was very sick (even when he was sentenced in 2005 he had a myriad of ailments and was sent straight to Butner). He was in North Carolina during the timeframe you are talking about, close to death.

Sorry, maybe I'm blanking here, but what does UW stand for?
Also, if "bookies, rounders and pushers" are talking about this kind of high-end shit, why hasn't anyone else heard of this? Vinny Asaro was blabbing to wired-up Gary Valenti about admin changes, captain's meetings, etc. during this exact timeframe you've suggested, but nothing about Buffalo. Pug Lovaglio was a high-ranking capo and informant during this time. JR Rubeo and that FBI agent never mentioned any Buffalo ties. Anthony Zoccolillo would have known about it 100%, he had ties to Genovese and Bonanno capos from both Manhattan (Patty Falcetti), and Brooklyn (Ernie Aiello and the Williamsburg crew) and he was an FBI agent during this time as well.

Also, I might be nitpicking at this point, but Joe C was in charge of his father's crew the moment his dad got sentenced to that 15-years. Wasn't he charged as a capo in 2007?

It is alright. Just because someone is in prison, does not mean they cannot communicate with the outside world. As I said before it was Senior, as this person chased a Capo from Florida on probation back down there. He is the only capo I know of the circumstances to do so. Joe Jr. Was only an acting Capo. Ernie was one of two acting capos for Nicky the Mouth. You know, in Donnie Brasco, his character was killed in with the three capos, who h in real life was not the case. Just because someone has access to a Capo or many capos does not mean they know everything. Case in point me personally knew and know San Jose Figlia, the Cerrito brothers, the Ditri brothers, Cusenza family, the Novello brothers, the Bracco brother, San Francisco Lanza Brothers, LaRocca brothers, Lima family, Bonanno and Profaci families, and mostly the Sciortino family, but I did not know 100 percent until later in life, and even 15 to 20 percent I am not sure. Do I know people in in other cities and Canada, Mexico, and Sicily? Yes, but I don't know everything. The problem between us, is you are a man of concrete evidence and I am a man of hear say who knows some reliable sources. Nothing wrong with that on either of us.

Nick,

What's the verdict?

I happen to agree alot of what I know.cannot be verified because it wasn't written in the paper
Only by someone else who knows similar or the same.

Sounds like he answered just about everything....
???

I just don't see why a near-death, sick, old, former capo in a medical prison in North Carolina is approving making ceremonies. The feds nowadays are very strict on prison communications.


You talking about Tartaglione?


Let's agree to disagree on the Joe Jr. thing. And yes, I know Ernie's story all too well but he was quite a high-ranking acting capo because he is the cousin/nephew of imprisoned boss Mike Mancuso, who relayed messages through Ernie on the outside with a series of letters.


I always found that funny. I wonder what Nicky Cigars thinks about that movie hehe.


Naturally. But in your case, you are saying that bookies and all sorts of seemingly low-ranking people know about the Buffalo making ceremony thing, whereas no rats that would seemingly have access to such knowledge - high ranking rats like Pete Lovaglio and low-ranking rats like Anthony Zoccolillo - have said anything about the matter, despite the fact that it would be really big news if true.
Also, another argument to that is that somehow wiseguys or wannabe wiseguys are telling you about all this, yet nobody in Buffalo law enforcement knows about it. But there's no real way to prove that, so no point arguing about that.


If you don't mind me asking, how do you have so many sources? It seems you have sources from all over the place, but why they would tell you stuff and not a paying consumer like LE, news journalists, GL news, is beyond me.
Also, why do you call it the Profaci family? I know about all the history with Joe Profaci, but I'm sure you know all too well that it's been called the Colombo family since the 70s.



Totally agree on that front. Nothing wrong with a street-knowledge man, and a hard-evidence man. But I do feel the need to poke holes in people's information if need be. I think you understand that that's fair enough. You might know your 100% right, but I don't know that, and many posters are exposed bullshitters or at least partially wrong and if that sort of stuff goes unchecked then that's no way to have a discussion.
So, to reiterate, don't take offense if I question and refute your story. I don't know you at all, so nothing I say is a personal attack against you. If there are questions or plot holes in people's information, I ask. Unfortunately, none of your information is really backed up by anything and Buffalo law enforcement, DAs, etc. have consistently said the family is dead. Whereas, when a guy like Bensonhurst offers his information, I can often personally back it up with my own researched knowledge, as well as information I have required through "sources," although I try not to post that sort of street-talk stuff.
But, that's not to say that I can't find fault with anything Bensonhurst says. I agree with some stuff he says, like stuff about Nicky Rizzo in another conversation, and I can also call him out and grill him on other stuff like an early 00s making ceremony from another thread. So I'm not strictly "anti street talk," but I'm just anti-bullshit. You have been respectful for this entire thread Giacomo, so I can have a proper discussion with you about this sort of stuff. Whereas, when a guy like Rooster comes in here and calls people delusional for not believing his baseless story, and is just a complete smartass, that's where I might come across as hostile.

For the record:
1. I believe Rooster is at least a partial liar/bullshitter considering his story just doesn't add up, and he seems to have ghosted this thread once I started laying out the real questions. If you're reading this Rooster, which I have no doubt you are, I have posted the questions to you twice, and if you've answered them previously, show me where.
2. I really don't know enough about Giacomo to comment, but (whilst others on other forums strongly disagree), I don't consider him a bullshitter. Nothing he says is completely out of this realm, and whilst I don't believe him, I wouldn't bet money against it.
3. I think Bensonhurst is "in the know," in some way shape or form. His information is solid. I can back some of it up, and have called him out on info I don't believe.

Giacomo so it appears that you personally know some members and higher ups in the Bonnano family?
I can possibly verify some of your info

Do you know Vinnie T.V.?

What makes you think he knows members and higher-ups? He hasn't even mentioned Vinny TV...

Vinny T.V. was in New Jersey, during the time the ceremonies took place. He sent in either August or September of 2012, and was released May of 2013.

He was sent in Sept. 25 and got out May 16. Served such a little time behind bars, that case was such a shambles.

So Tommy DiFiore, Vinny Asaro and Tony Rabito would have to have been notified of the ceremonies right? Since they were running the Bonannos. And Vin didn't notify Gaspare?


Also Giacomo, off topic, but what do you think about Rooster's claim that Anthony Todaro is in the life and has a whole lot of young guys around him? And how much can you verify Cosa Nostra News' chart about the hierarchy and structure of the family? For the record, I believe that chart is total BS because the only people that would know that sort of info are higher-ups, and I don't see why a higher-up would be messaging Cosa Nostra News of all places and telling them all the details of the family.

Who is his partner in the bagel and construction business

You can't look that up
anywhere

BensonHURST, Johnny F is who you are thinking of.

Nicky, I do believe Rooster has the Anthony Todaro mixed up. Anthony Todaro, brother to Joe Jr, has an older crowd with a few younger gophers that hang around him. Anthony Todaro who is in his early 30's is active on the streets, and has his hands in quite a few activities. I posted a list, sometime back with him questionable being made possibly in 2015. Buffalo definitely made someone that year, but I don't think it was him.

I have already said what I have say about that chart, and posted a list of current made members. 41 one is my count, with only 26 or 27 members active.

The Rooster, you asked a question about Bobby Panera earlier. I now think you were refereeing to the place before he moved to Las Vegas. The name of the lounge was The Snowball.

No but you are very close
I will give you that

Nick,

He kept mentioning Bonnano Capos

He just gave the name of someone in Vinnie' s crew John John that I can't see how he would know of him.
He is just an associate as far as I know no one would know of unless you know that crew personally.

Either that or he just pulled a rabbit out of a hat.
And got lucky.

Fair enough.

So Nick what's the Verdict?
Buffalo isn't what is was
Never will be

However, more going than what the media is aware of and if they are inducting new members as of 2015 they would be an actual and not a defunct family?

I don't believe there is more going on than what meets the eye. It is fun and interesting to believe there is, but I don't see how it's possible the family is still active.
To say that the Todaro crime family is making new members is one thing, but to say they are in contact with Bonanno and Genovese capos is another thing when you consider all the rats during that period. Longtime paid informers like Bonanno capo Petey Lovaglio, Brooklyn/Manhattan Bonanno & Genovese associate Anthony Zoccolillo, direct-with-admin Bonanno associate Gaspare Valenti, longtime Genovese associate JR Rubeo and his FBI agent that he brought in, and a whole lot of others during that time.
You could say "But Nicky, this information might be top-secret stuff that associates aren't aware of." Good point, but Giacomo has said that his info does not come from anyone particularly high-ranking - he said bookies, rounders, and pushers were his sources.

Not all street talk is equal. If someone says "I have it on good authority that Ernie Aiello is now looking over Patsy Parrello's loansharking ring while the guy is imprisoned," well then that's quite plausible and you can say to yourself "Huh, maybe I'll give this guy the benefit of the doubt." But in this case, if you believe what Giacomo is saying than you are choosing an unknown internet poster over real-life Buffalo mob insiders like Ron Fino, proven mob experts like Scott Deitche, Buffalo federal prosecutors like Lee Coppola and Frank Clark, Buffalo FBI agents like Andrew Goralski and acclaimed news reporters Mike Hudson & Dan Herbeck. You are also going against basic logic, like "Since there 1980s, active families in the United States are regularly busted." Yes, families like Chicago and Detroit are more infrequent than other families, but the key point is - they still get busted! Chicago has had multiple in the past five years, many of which I mentioned earlier in this thread, and Detroit has also had busts, although less frequent. Detroit has also been confirmed by feds and media to be active whereas buffalo has been confirmed the opposite.


Bensonhurst, do you believe Buffalo is active, and if so why? Also, do you believe Giacomo over Rooster or vice versa since they have different stories?

Yes, Im still here Nicky, just dumbfounded you cant just agree to disagree

No ones ghosting the thread. Dont pat yourself on the back. This blog isnt my life.

I believe youre just mad that you cant get a consensus on this board and it eats at you and as Giacomo fills in the plotholes (as you say) ones that I cant because I do not know every truth or untruth because I am not an active member of the Mafia youre proven wrong. So again, keep name calling and grasping at every law officers words and every journalists article so you can try again to get everyone to believe you, which they dont and wont.

Sooooo, in conclusion, how about we agree to disagree? Or you still need that concept dumbed down some more?

And not every story by me or Giacomo is going to be completely the same...we are both going of rumors and street word therefore some is lost in translation. Do you understand that or you need it dumbed down for you some more?

Whatever happened to all of these guys

Russ/Benny Carcone
Patsy Brindisi
Harold Bordonaro
Sal Bonito "Georgie Raft"
Anthony Chirico (Rochester)
Paulie Cipolla
Phil Corelli
Joseph DePaolo "Joe Dips"
Frank Falzone (Buffalo)
Ronny Fino
Frank Ferraro
Peter Gerace (son-in-law of Todaro)
Nat Luppino (Hamilton)
Vinny/Joe Lombardo
Bruce Monaco (Toronto)
Frank Marino
Leo Mordino
Carl Mazza
Frank Meola
Mike Muscarella
Joe Pugliese (Hamilton)
Joe/John Pieri
Bobby/Larry Panaro (Vegas)
Vic Sansanese "Fredo"
Richie/Tony Todaro (Buffalo)

You're only trying to "agree to disagree" after I've asked basic questions you can't answer.



I'm not mad that I'm not getting a consensus on this board. I respect Giacomo and his arguments, even though I might disagree with him.
I don't need anything dumbed down, but you claimed to have answered all my questions and now that I've outlined some fundamental questions which I've been asking for this entire thread, you try and say "how about we just agree to disagree."


You concede that street talk can get lost in translation, yet you state these tidbits of knowledge as fact, and you call people delusional for not believing you.


So if you continue to refuse to answer such basic questions, which (if you're telling the truth) should be simple to answer, then this isn't a case of "agreeing to disagree," this is a case of you not being able to plug your plugholes and not having the guts to concede that your story has fallen apart.

Meanwhile, if Giacomo and Bensonhurst want to keep talking about Buffalo, I'd be happy to.

Once again Nicky, what questions have I not answered?

Sonny, Nicky thinks all those guys you listed now run daycare centers and bounce house businesses.

They have all quietly disappeared never to commit heirachal organized crime again. Probably finger painting right now as we type.

Nicky, if anyone were to needs guts to do something it would be you and that would be conceding that your reliance on law enforcement and journalists proving they dont exist/are viable fell apart weeks ago.

Oh hell I know some of those names are still on the street there has to be atleast a good handful

I have sent you the questions twice now. Don't pretend you haven't seen them.
Here they are, for the third time:
Here are the questions:
First question: Which busts were in 2005, 2010, and 2012?
For a 2010 bust, you cited the arrest of a former associate, Cohen, although there is simply zero evidence that the crimes committed were connected to any sort of OC or the Buffalo mafia.
Second question: What evidence do you have that Local 210 and Local 91 are still mobbed-up? You claimed that the union was never cleaned up fully cleaned up, but there is no evidence of that other than Ron Fino (who flipped in 1989) saying that the feds could have done more in terms of union control.
Third queston: I haven't asked this before, but you said James Feliciano was made in 2000, but he was indicted in Feb. 2000? Also, during that time, he lived in Brooklyn.
Fourth question: You said:
"Members are still under surveillance by BPD and NYS Police, Im not sure about the Feds but they are thought to be viable per local and state law enforecement's definition."
Why have numerous law enforcement officials (I have listed many) denied that the Buffalo mafia exists. They have no reason to do so and it could only hurt any future cases for them if they're lying. By the way, this includes Buffalo federal prosecutor Lee Coppola, Erie County DA Frank J. Clark and Buffalo FBI agent Andrew Goralski. You are saying that LE are conducting surveillance on mobsters. I have given you clear evidence that LE does not consider these guys to be still active.
Also, if LE are conducting surveillance on these guys (which it's clear they're not), why have there been no busts in over 15 years? This can't be compared to Chicago or Detroit, since there is usually a bust every few years for those families (more so for Chicago, less so for Detroit). Usually investigations are finished in less than five years, when a case is made. It's extremely rare a mob investigation lasts over a decade. Since you are claiming "LE is keeping tabs on these guys" we can assume there's multiple investigations. Yet no cases.
By the way, your initial answer to this question above was "You know nothing about Buffalo or know anyone from here" - True, but it's common knowledge that LE don't follow people and watch people for 15+ years without making a bust...
Fifth question:
You said that the existence of the mob in Buffalo is not a secret, and people know what they do. Then why would the area's two leading news stations consistently report, complete with backed up sources, that the family is defunct. Why would acclaimed mob experts and journalists be trying to cover up the existence of this family?
Sixth question:
You said that the articles I posted could be easily misinterpreted. How in the hell do you misinterpret: "The Mafia is all but dead in Western New York. So what killed it?" with comments in the article such as ""“Most of the men who were responsible for the mob murders in Buffalo are dead,” he said. “The hit men who committed the murders are dead." "And no young people have emerged to replace them, Coppola said."" and """Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."""
There is no ambiguity in these statements and no room for misinterpretation. These articles I posted explicitly state the Mafia is dead in Buffalo and Western NY.
Seventh question:
You noted that "Cops here are friends with members, are involved in crime themselves and corrupt prone, just like everywhere else." It seems you are implying that corruption is a big factor in why these alleged mobsters aren't getting busted "just like everywhere else." Except "everywhere else" where there is an active mafia family or criminal enterprise, there are busts. If you are implying that corruption in Buffalo is so prevalent that busts are impossible, that is a wild statement. Of course, if you are implying something different then I apologise for the confusion. Any insight?



How many of the guys that Sonny linked under are 65?
And, by the way, what happened to the dozens of members and associates from other families like Milwaukee, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, etc.???? Or are your drunk city cops telling you that they are active as well?

\
When did my reliance on law enforcement and journalists fall apart? You're making this up as you go. Here's what we have: High-ranking, proven law enforcement officials including FBI agents, federal prosecutors and DAs saying that the family is defunct, and an internet poster claiming that his law enforcement sources are telling the opposite.

Seriously, when did the credibility of my info "fall apart?" When did the credibility of the number of high-ranking LE guys, journalists, prosecutors and mob experts "fall apart." It hasn't. So explain to me how your comment there makes sense.
As it stands, you are the one that's been refusing to answer questions. Not me.


I have never disputed that guys might still be active. But no, it's not a part of a grand racketeering conspiracy that was active in the 20th century. There are still independent mob guys in defunct families across America. The same goes for Buffalo.

I will respond to everything shortly