Thank you Snakes, I always considered you an open minded individual. That is the real truth about the Chicago Outfit and its non-Italian members.

Another, quite interesting info regarding Alex's time on the Outfit's ruling panel, according to one FBI report, in 1974, Aiuppa heavily suffered from arthritis and was unable to function and spent some time in hospital. At the same time, Accardo was in Palm Springs, and so my point is that during this short period Alex was the only boss of the ruling panel that took care of day to day operations. When Aiuppa was brought back from hospital, theres a report which also says that in fact Alex’s brother Sam was the one who delivered the messages between his brother and Aiuppa because Sam resided approximately one mile from Aiuppa’s residence in Oak Brook.

Thats also a very interesting info regarding the Cleveland mob which reminds me of this post that i made some time ago, in which i said that America's underowrld was always a little bit different than the rest of the crime organizations around the world. You see, crime groups in Europe or Asia always had memberhsip made by people only from their own ethnicity obviously because they originated in their own countries.

But in the U.S. all of the criminal imigrants always had to share their bread with people from different nationalities and that is why sometimes or in rare examples, it was hard for some of the criminal groups to maintain their criminal memberships formed by only one ethnicity.

I've seen some of those same reports. I think that once Aiuppa's health improved he took complete control over the daily affairs of the Outfit which allowed Accardo and Alex to more or less retire to Palm Springs and Fort Lauderdale, respectively. Obviously, they still made decisions and had control as evidenced by their later indictments; Accardo first in 1981 with the dental plan scam and Alex a decade later in with the Lenny Patrick crew.

Now I know that you have good knowledge in that particular era of the Outfit and I want to ask you this. When Aiuppa took full control of the organization, lets say 1975 or 76, the ruling panel was finished and Cerone took the position as underboss, right?

I would agree with that as long as one us careful to make the distinction. Because just simply saying "They were members of the Outfit," without clarifying, can give people the wrong impression and make them think you're saying they were formal members of the Chicago LCN.

I think that once Aiuppa took over operational control, Cerone was pretty quickly placed in the #2 spot. With the panel dissolved and Accardo and Alex taking a less active role, Aiuppa needed an experienced guy to aid him with the running of the Outfit and Cerone, as a former boss himself for a brief time in the late sixties, was perfect for the role.

The remaining guys who could have potentially been named instead of Cerone were either dead or in jail and most of the territorial bosses were young, new to the position, or both, making them unlikely candidates as well. Dom DiBella was the only guy that I think would have been considered instead of Cerone but he was already called out of semi-retirement once to take over for Ross Prio so I doubt that he had any higher aspirations. Possibly Chuck Nicoletti as well, but I'm not sure he was completely trusted by the Outfit brain-trust at the time.

Definitely a mistake that many newspapers made. I've even seen some federal documents do it.

@Ivy I agree.


@Snakes thanks again. I believe that DiBella was in partnership with Nicoletti and was his so-called protection untill his death in July 1976, followed by Nicoletti's slaying in March, 1977

BTW guys this is what i call a very productive conversation regarding O.C.

With the Vegas skim, it's arguable that the Outfit was the most powerful mafia family in the 1970's. I'd imagine another time the Outfit was arguably the most powerful mob family was in the 1930s. There's a reason Lucky and the guys in NY allowed Chicago on the commission, and if you read a lot of Mario Puzo, it's probably not because they liked Chicago...

I'll bet in the '70s they were. Tony Accardo and the other midwest bosses had a solid operation going with the Vegas skim and their street bosses taking most of the heat.

The Lucchese-Gambino-Genovese dominance of organized crime was starting to see some turmoil in that decade, as RICO was beginning to be the primary tool of DA's.

Why would you find it hard to believe the Outfit was more powerful than the Colombos, at any point? In the Profaci days they probably weren't, but since they adopted the Colombo name they've been in nearly constant chaos.

Quick question guys was jackie the best because he was acting boss at one time or tony want someone who knew the rackets and the areas boss,It look like a lot's of heavy hitterwas on the come up in the late 70's.

Read my post above where I cover why I believe they chose Cerone as UB.

Chicago had a lot of unmade, non Italian guys that were very high up the ladder, so the number of made guys could be misleading. Wasn't there also a time when Chicago didn't even make Italian members? No ceremony or nothing? Basically, you just took orders and rose up the ranks? Recall reading that somewhere, maybe Frattiano's book.

If you look at the known figures, the Vegas skim wasn't nearly enough to be a factor to put the Outfit on top. Not in the 1950s and 1960s and certainly not afterward. And it's always been the Genovese who were the most powerful. I don't know how anyone can argue otherwise.

Chicago at their strongest was probably more powerful than the Bonannos or the Colombos or arguably the Lucchesses at their respective weakest. Never higher than the Gambinos or Genovese, IMO.

Chicago always made guys but the details and formality of the ceremony varied over time. There really are just too few examples to go by as they have had so few informants and keep the inductions low key and on a need to know basis.

It was Giancana's brother's book. His brother claims he told him that he thought making ceremonies were stupid. That's where I got the idea. Thanks for clearing it up.

Parts of that book are debatable as far as accuracy is concerned. At any rate, Chicago's inductions in the fifties and sixties differed from the East Coast ceremonies and were much more simplified and informal affairs. I've read a few different variations on it, ranging from a simple dinner or banquet to one of the capos simply claiming a guy as "his" and making this known to the other bosses so they would know that the guy was now "one of them" and needed to be afforded more respect. It may have also varied from territory to territory as the Outfit was self-governing to a certain extent.

Some years ago I saw a chart of the old school Chicago guys, dozens all non-italians. Maybe someone could post it here.

This one?:

Some of the guys were on it, but it's not the same chart. It had pictures and only non-italians, many Jews.

Ok, I know which one you are talking about now. I'll see if I can dig it up.

Thanks for the great insight on the Outfit here guys. Especially interesting to find out Alex was technically the acting boss for a little while.

In regards to Chicago and made men, looking over Frattiano's book again, there's one point when he mentions staying at a hotel in Chicago. He says he met several Outfit guys there and every time he was formally introduced to a made man, Milwaukee Phil Alderisio had to leave the room because he wasn't made yet. You've also got Johnny Rosselli talking about "amici nostra" and being involved in a making ceremony.

This one?

https://imgur.com/eok9Cz1

The chart was similar to this one with all the important associates like Lenny Patrick.
http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/mafi...=20160416190049

As far as the membership being Italian or Non-Italian, I don't think it's really ever considered that the Chicago Outfit, if you look at it PREDATES the formation of American Cosa Nostra, not SICILIAN, but definitely American LCN.

This is a point I don't think is really considered when asking if guys were really members. It really WASNT NECCESARY for Chicago, not until the 70s, when the mechanism of made men became useful to the Outfit, after all the major enterprises started to be dismantled. The Chicago syndicate,really was a true syndicate, a synthesis of Crime, Business and Politics first, ethnicity second.


@ Ivey

I Could actually argue about the strength of the families, but as Todooped pointed out, a discussion about Chicago without an argument is so rare, why ruin it lol

Well said Toodoped back then no one cared where some one was from it was all about Brain power . And Hump & Alex sure had the smarts and the power

Thats also another interesting point in which im currently researching it. There maight've been at least few "made guys" from the Outfit during that period (between late 1950's and mid 60's), meaning individuals who went through a initiation ceremony. And these people contacted with other crime families, not just as messangers or representatives for the organization, but instead they made business deals and together ordered contracts. I suspect that some of these individuals within the Outfit were Ricca, Accardo, Campagna, Giancana, Roselli, Prio, Battaglia, Aiuppa, Cerone and maybe even Richard Cain aka Scalzetti. From the top of my mind i can think of few examples like Ricca having a meeting with Giancana and Tommy Eboli from the Genovese crime family,or also one time when some New York crime family had a problem with some Outfit guy they immediatelly contacted Accardo. Roselli was in contact with all of the Midwest groups, Battaglia's farm was sometimes used for high profile national mob meeting and somewhere around the early 1960's they planned to make another Apalachin-like metting at Battaglia's but later it was cancelled because they knew about the place been on a constant lookout from the FBI.

toodoped, could you clear something up about gianacana and albert Anastasia, read where gianacana wanted scalise dead, a capo of Anastasia, reason being gianacana said scalise was running heroin through Chicago, there was supposed to have been bitter words between Anastasia, and giancana over this situation, scalise was shot to death, do you think that gianacana would confront an east coast boss as powerful as Anastasia?

Snakes I value your input on most everything BUT
I think when it comes to Cleveland - "Snakes" you are out over your skis on this one.

Tony DelSanter was Consigliere to Cleveland up to when he died in August 1977. How do I know this? My Wife was Tony DelSanter's Girlfriend.

John (Peanuts) Tronolone was Consigliere during the early 1980's before moving up. Angelo Lonardo - Underboss in Cleveland testified to it in New York. He also stated that Maishe Rockman was handling Jackie Presser because he had close ties to he and Presser's father.

Maishe Rockman was Angelo Lonardo Brother-in-Law so they had a close relationship.