Well my hope is by smart decision making and hard work at a younger age I can be able to not "need" or be dependent on government if that is not the case I have nobody to blame but myself. I have no issue with people collecting SS some people actually need it but, I don't live my life thinking that it doesn't matter what I do I can spend all I want because I am going to be taken care of. I have more faith in myself to be successful than some people and if I'm not as successful as I want like I said before I can only blame myself.

Unleash of course I have some debilitating disease or something beyond my power

And again where did I lie?

You think most people on social security are on it because they didn't make smart decisions, or didn't work hard enough?

The so called rich when they are making a lot of money will not get their earned social security in the future. But using that money by the government is not even pennies on what we oue on the national debate.

Let's penalize the rich for making a lot of money. So no one even tries to be rich anymore. See how our economy is helped by that.

When you work for a big company who owns that big company a poor person?

You work for a small business how much money do you think you can make there?

Open a small business most people have to devote all their time doing hands on work there. Then let's say they are doing well and making gross 700 thousand a year. From that employee get paid and other stuff if you clear less then half your lucky then pay taxes high taxes because you are considered rich to pay your fair share. I hate that phrase but no politician will say how much the fair share is does Hillary pay her fair share?

When people get all their tax money back and end up paying no taxes. Are they paying their fair share? Their the ones who want other people to pay their fair share.

I think most people can make a lot of money if their willing to do anything to make it. Like forget about their family life their wife and kids and just concentrate on work. I have no doubt they can make a lot of money.

But who is willing to make that sacrifice to do that. Definately not most people. No followers will give up everything to make that happen.

The weak will not do it. That's why I despise weak people.

I saw a guy who could barely walk go food shopping in a local big grocery store. People there wanted to help him shop. Hell I wanted to help him. But that guy did not want any help from anyone. That guy had a will of iron. He was not weak he was strong he was an animal. I respect someone like that.

You have little to no reading comprehension skills. I never said that I'm not even talking about other people I am talking about myself and I was when you called me a liar but can't seem to tell me what I lied

Just asking a question, that's all. You said you're hoping to avoid being "dependent on government" (which I assume entails needing social security at an advanced age) by working hard and making smart choices. So, I just asked you if you think people on social security didn't work hard or make smart choices. Do you?

You think there's a possibility that no one will want to be rich someday?

thedudeabides,

Let me say this.

I hope you do succeed to the point to where you won't need social security.

I also hope social security is there for you, in case you don't.

I think that's the best way to articulate my argument.

I think when you work in a communist or socialist country there is no incentive to come up with an idea that you can make real money with. If you do come up with a great idea it becomes the property of the state not the inventor. Get it

I think if you are a doctor a surgeon in one of those places you can't make any money. So why put all that time in to study.

I know a high ranking officer in a foreign army. He make a lot of money by being in the army. He also happens to be a doctor a surgeon he make no money doing that.

Communist countries are one thing, but in this country, there will ALWAYS be people that want to be rich. That fantasy is right up there with the love of guns.

becoming rich IS looking more, and more like a fantasy,

the tax structure is set up to benefit the extreme rich

and the stock market is more or less rigged, with all the leveraged mergers, and manipulation going on daily.
becoming rich used to the dream of the middle class now
the dream of the middle class, is the hope it doesn't disappear
altogether/
.

Being "rich" is subjective.

Dude,

just got finished watching the Glenn Beck "Founding Fathers" clip you put up a while back.Thanks. Definitely interesting. Beck has to throw in some of the garbage of course, but pretty interesting. I had some good debates on this site about "Black History Month" and I've always said that It exists because the contributions of Africans were omitted from general American history books. Not by coincidence either.
When they take questions at the end, the people are clearly plants and it looks like an infomercial.

Central banking destroys the middle class little by little. Disproportionately hurts the poor and those on fixed incomes. The financial sector, the stock market, and the banks become bigger and richer because they have access to the money and credit first. All artificially propped up. Add the promise of bail outs and it is a complete house of cards.
Too much money and resources get shuttled into the financial sector, which means less capital, resources and productivity in sectors that the economy actually needs.

It's not because of the tax system. Taxes just send more money to the government. The government spends way more than what it takes in. Artificially low interest rates discourages savings. Savings is where real capital comes from. Artificially low interest rates and credit expansion leads to over consumption of resources, massive debt, and highly leveraged business models.

Simply taxing rich people can't solve the problem of finite resources.

so cal gang................ what you have said is basically the reasons for the death of the middle class, and when it in its death throes, will we ever be able to get it back, one thing that made the middle class in the 50s... 60s was labor unions.
now they are nowhere near the membership they had 30 40 yrs ago, I believe I will live to see the complete dismemberment of the middle class.

It always was a fantasy. You can take the U.S. economy at its historical high point, which is arguably the 1950s or the 1990s, depending on which economists you ask, and the odds were never in favor of the average American becoming rich. Ever. It's always been a long shot. There's nothing wrong with setting it as a goal. But to walk around having it as some sort of inherited expectation, anticipating it being a substitute for things like a secure union job, health insurance, and social security, is clearly a flawed plan. This is not pessimism, this is a conclusion based on the odds, and the odds aren't even close.

Let's call it 200k/year.

The vast, vast majority of Americans will never see that. Just a statistical fact.

yes,i understand you, a good secure job, and health insurance, and pension is indeed a dream for most u.s. workers.
young married couples can't even afford a new car, much less a house, I guess you could say that the crashing of the American dream, has finally hit home to most americans, hence the demigod Donald trump exploiting this realization of dissatisfied American workers,

Good jobs and pensions are still attainable. They're being whittled away at, but they're there. Being rich is not attainable. It's a tall mountain for most Americans, and it always was. Yet, a lot of Americans are dealing with the loss of the former by clinging to a delusional belief in achieving the latter. We can fight for middle class jobs and win. Instead, we choose to fight to be rich, where only 1 in a hundred or so are going to win. In the past 16 years the Republican party has done a number on our grasp of reality.

excellent post, and I for one totally agree, the republican party has devastated the middle class. and I agree about the delusion.

I think there are number of factors the lead to current trend of shrinking middle class.

One that is often overlooked is that as people have become more assimilated they are generally LESS likely to think of entrepreneurship.


Those of you who are 4-6 generation Americans or less, think about the stories you heard about previous generations owning businesses...often out of necessity because of prejudice towards their group from Americans who had been here longer.

Older generation smartly pushed their kids to get formal education and enter the mainstream. Somewhere along the way people lost the entrepreneurial spirit , and as the economy has contracted the job opportunities just aren't there anymore.

Old school guy who owned a pizzeria predicted this to me when I was a kid. He said today's kids were like house cats, who were declawed. Put them out in nature and they will starve.

Another large part of what has happened to the US middle class is the loss of the kind of manufacturing jobs that allowed many Americans to move into the middle class starting in the post WW2 era. Strong unions, high wages, high demand for ourgoods, etc made the leap up possible for millions. Men could work in a factory, own a house, send their kids to college, etc. Good luck with that today.

Those jobs aren't coming back, no matter who you vote for.

The H1B visa program,and the way businesses misuse it ,is especially a slap in the face.

It does highlight a point that if often loss on American workers, to Big Business labor is just a cost. If the cost can be lowered, you are expendable.

It's a tough pill to swallow, especially for people who bought into the things that talking heads have been feeding them for years.

But, I thought Trump said he's THE guy who can fix it.

For the past couple of decades, the talking heads have been feeding people the opposite, telling them they don't need government, unions, social security, health insurance, etc. People who buy this are the ones that will be swallowing a tough pill.

Absolutely. And in the interests of full disclosure, my industry and I are an excellent example, so I bear some guilt in all this. Not the visas, but the cost of labor and it's expendability.

When I began my career about 25 years ago about 85% of the total goods made in my industry were produced in the US and 15% were made overseas. The numbers are now reversed,but slightly worse, say 93% overseas and 7% US.

Why? Because even with the costs of shipping merchandise from China/India/Pakistan to the US I can still make a bigger margin by manufacturing overseas and bringing it here than I could making it here. The cost of labor is the biggest factor in that calculation.

We have the biggest most powerful government in the history of the world. Trillions upon trillions of debt to show for it. The most regulations the world has ever seen.

No, the people that have a tough pill to swallow will be those of you that think adding a few more trillions of government spending and programs
Will solve the problem of a shrinking middle class. Because you do not understand resources are finite and that the more resources go towards government/ political distribution of resources, the poorer and weaker the private economy becomes.

I don't know what talking heads you're talking about. All I heard all my life, from government run schools, to the media, is that the government is like a god. And we all need government to solve ALL our problems. Just give the politicians more power so they can wave that magic wand and fix it all. Without them, everything would collapse. Even the so called small government conservatives will spend and grow the government even bigger than the democrats when in power.
The statists have been in charge for decades. This is your economy.