@tiger84
NAILED IT,LOL
@climent

I get what you are saying, the point you are trying to make, this is the thing...

Neither the Sicilians, or Ndrangheta want to take over the American families, they never have.

Their Concern is controlling the flow of narcotics. You gotta understand, the Sicilians and calabrians are based in basically small towns. Rural type organizations, that traditionally were based off Mafiosi "protecting" wealthy estates, and the owners of the wealthy estates having close ties to politicians. So it's a system that works hand in glove so to speak. This power is concentrated in THIER TERRITORY, remember it's literally the land that their power was based off. But these territories are limited in their economic potential, which is why there is fierce competition, and a need for a tightly regulated system for the " men of honor". This system of complicity also enable the collection of pizzo' the tax on all the business in said territory. Furthering the need for a mechanism for who gets what, and who is entitled to what at any given time.

Now drugs change things a little. The first guy to get the most solid, reliable connection, respect, prestige, old age, family ties, whatever be damned, PEOPLE WILL FOLLOW THE MONEY. ( This is why the Sicilians became so involved with Turkey and the Corsicans, the Calabrians being so embedded in South America, to gain control of the supply end, whole sale markets)

The guy that can secure a reliable, safe, distribution point, where large amounts of narcotics can be moved effectively and quickly, will always be valuable to a supplier, and will always have leverage at the table. It also MAXIMIZES profits (This is why you saw the Sicilians sending crews over to America to move heroin, why the Calabrians entrench themselves in European cities, they don't control their own distribution in Italy, and why, despite their lack of refinement, you see Bikers and street gang leaders with a say in the trade, the "Marlo Method" I like to call it.... )
Also, you will never see Americans sending crews to Italy, for the same reasons Naples doesn't send crews here. Both sides already have control of city streets, the rural Sicilians and calabrians never had that luxury... Hence they move around a LOT MORE....
They need street corners, or bars, or trendy night clubs, places to move merchandise, they can't do this from the hills somewhere in Sicily or Calabria. That why the Pizza connection was so smart, the guys were constantly in motion, never a concentration of customers and product, and money in one spot, cash operation, ready made built in money laundering component, built in delivery, it was a smart thing...
Ace narcotics smugglers,the guys that can get the loads from one side of the ocean, to another. The guys that control docks and ports.The guys that can truck the stuff from state to state under cover. Be it coffee, powdered milk, fruit, in furniture, whatever, this guy will always be valuable to a supplier cause it one less thing for him to worry about. ( I suspect this is why the Frenchman is so valued in Montreal, he STILL has a seat at the table)

I'll add a fourth component, though it only comes into play once you establish yourself in the chain. This is a reliable money laundering network, and for this I'll use the Caruana- Cun-trea family....



Now you guys mention the Sicilians, Ivey, you gotta understand...
I DONT THINK THE SICILIANS WERE EVERY REALLY INTERESTED IN, EVEN MEMBERSHIP IN THE AMERICAN FAMILIES.
They accepted it as a price of doing business type of thing, but their entire focus was moving their drugs, and laundering the money, that's it.
Take this excerpt from Sixth Family...

https://books.google.com/books?id=0ZygQJ...ano&f=false


It's about how Sciascia was a Bonnano capo, but had no real interest in the Bonnano Family, outside of using it as a mechanism to facilitate his drug business. That's pretty much the Cherry Hill Gambinos as well, they were loyal to Sicily until Riina killed every thing, then they accepted American mob membership as a survival tool. Ditto with Sal Catalano, in the book it says he basically moved narcotics and stayed to himself. So I while I understand the point climent is making about the strength of Ndrangheta, I sort of agree with Ivey on this one.

See if the Cotroni/Violi organization would have let Nick Rizzuto and the Sicilians just move their narcotics with Impunity, the Rizzutos never woulda gave a fuck about who was boss of Montreal. The fact that they tried to use the criminal hierarchy as justification for controlling the operation, made it a necessity to control the hierarchy. I'll bet you if Angelo Bruno would have balked at letting the Gambinos set up shop in Jersey he woulda been very dead a lot sooner, and maybe not even from the American Gambinos.


You know why you never see the Camorra in America? They have all the urban distribution centers in Italy and a lot of Eastern Europe (cities like Prague) so all they need is reliable supply. They can just buy from Ndrangheta, then move the stuff on the streets of Naples. It why you see so much drug gang violence, young guys, "Baby Bosses" they call em, like gun battles In the streets type of activity. At one point they were very entrenched in Castel Del Sol in Spain, and so controlled their own supply as well, but I don't think this is still the case? @ Furio Raffale Amato, the Spaniard right? But I think he got busted a long time ago......


It comes down to this; If the American Mafia tried to exert some sort of control over Ndranghetas narcotics operation, we would be like " Oh my god they hit Frank Cali!!!, like tomorrow, lol. But they won't, so there will never be a real conflict of interest there. If the American mob want to get into the narcotics business' they will contact Ndrangheta. If Ndrangheta wants in on any American investments for all their ill gotten gains, as well as channels for laundering the money, the American mob could and would probably help.

Now one thing I don't get.... Why do you guys think sports books, loan sharking, unions, can compete with narcotics as far as earning? Tom Hagen would disagree with you guys, lol. I routinely see these European gangs getting 100-200-300-400 million euros worth of shit taken from em on a REGULAR BASIS, it seems to do nothing to stop the system.

When climet said he was looking at repeating patterns worldwide, I agree with that. (Pizza connection for heroin, recent Pizza connection in Queens for coke)Like it's pretty much a fact the cartels earn more than the American families. If you follow this stuff, its become common knowledge that the Calabrians out earn even THEM. I would definitely say that the Rizzutos rivaled any of the American families in earnings, including the Genovese, based of narcotics operations. It enabled Vito to make moves like that 5 billion dollar bridge they wanted to build. It enabled him to put together that 200 million dollar sports book, like it wasn't the other way around.


All these powerful worldwide gangs, are into narcotics, it knows no boundaries, yet you guys still think the REGIONAL NEW YORK mob, could compete without any major involvement in the drug trade. Even as we acknowledge most of the billion dollar rackets were busted up like garbage, the garment center, the docks, I'm just saying, what would they have left, that would be comparable? Entertainment? You never really hear much there, they gotta have some connects still... I know there is gambling, but again there is no way that guy has more liquidity than a successful drug dealer, I can't see it. Only during the Harlem boom times, when they had all the narcotic distribution( see my point here) all the action from numbers, that's a lot of hard cash, Fat Tony had the biggest book I've ever heard of at 80 million, and he was Harlem based. Maybe only Gerry Catena ,Richie the boot in jersey, only guys I've heard of remotely as rich but this is a different era. Today it's all drugs, unless you have some Richie Martino kind of ingenuity, but I haven't seen anything like that in awhile, it's all mostly traditional mob stuff. And traditional mob stuff ain't beating narcotics, not as far as I can see...
My last edit; I also think the sophistication of some of these narcotics operations is underrated, for example; The Naples gangs created distribution cells that have no street presence. It's more based on clicks like the college student pusher, or the law office pusher, or the doctors office pusher. Saviano called em Neo-Liberal mobsters lol. They also created a system where a regular working joe could invest in narcotics transactions like it was a stock, and they paid out when the investment, the shipment was sold off. In this way they always had ready capital for narcotics shipments, whereas the calabrians have the trust of Colombia and can get everything on credit, tremendous leverage there...

Good discussion, any more thoughts fellas?