@ivey


Again if you mean has a group come close to duplicating the mafias infiltration of legit industries, then no.

If you are talking about power in the streets, well yeah. That's what drugs is, THE STREET LEVEL BUSINESS. If you control the flow of drugs you control a good portion of the street, or at least have significant influence.

Think Carmine Galante; All he cared about was drugs, and it was a significant enough problem for the ENTIRE MAFIA TO WANT HIM DEAD. Frank Mathews essentially was Carmine Galante, or some sort of equivalent. But again, for the millionth time, an organization that focuses on drugs is different from the "infiltration model". So a direct comparison is going to be a little difficult....

I agree. All I wanted was to point out the facts. They don't seem to understand that groups are different, and that pointing out positives and negatives doesn't mean you are being racist. What is crazy is that no one objects when you criticize white people, a race I've criticized more than probably any other race.

At the end of the day, it's about the individual and not entire groups. Like I said before, the smartest person I know happens to be African American.

I had to laugh when I got accused of being a conservative. I've never been a right winger. I support Bernie Sanders, a man who for years has fought hard to better the lives of African Americans and other minorities.

so having the most money doesn't mean you have the most power?

I get the the distinction but I don't see much evidence those earlier guys surpassed the mob on any level, be it power in the streets or anything else. Not only are we talking about one drug trafficking organization against the entire NY Mafia, we're talking long before RICO, etc.



Are you assuming those drug guys you mentioned made more money than the mob?

Also, you gotta understand;

People jumped down his throat because of what he said and how he said it.
He said BLACKS CRIMINALS DONT HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE TO DO WHAT THE ITALIANS DID.

Now what is that? Form a hierarchy? Impose rules and order? Run businesses, form connections with politicians? Guys like BlackFam can provide examples of all that, so what do you REALLY MEAN?

Irish criminals were every bit as smart as the Italians, they never formed a national syndicate, no one will say they were too dumb to do it. Same with the Jewish gangsters. The Mexicans and Colombians made away more money, but the money doesn't necessarily translate to power, why? Cause the money you give to a politician has to be, "kinda" beyond reproach right? I mean it has to at least LOOK A LITTLE CLEAN, how do you just throw drug money at a politician in today's day and age? With Rico and all that, it isn't Canada.

You guys make these dudes seem like SUPER CRIMINALS because they are Italian, when really they got big cause of prohibition, the depression, and a myopic FBI. Couple this with the labor unions, (and some like the Teamsters have had discriminating policies as far as minorities, so how could they get power there?) These are the things that made the mob, the MOB.
You look at that post I put up Ivey, if they woulda left the GDs alone for a little while longer, they woulda been a problem in Chicago and all over.

Direct evidence? Well when the black gangsters went and got their own supply, that's when they came up. When guys like Nicky Barnes established an absence of competition in the biggest markets, that's when their power and negotiating leverage goes up tremendously.

It's like, what the fuck you expect, blacks to be controlling labor unions during Jim Crow era America? It has nothing to do with intelligence like what the fuck?

Look at it this way, name the guy in the mob during the Matthews era, that was as big or bigger.... Seriously, who?

The pizza connection got cooking in the late 70s 80s?

Would you name Pasquale Conte? Casso and Amuso? The Bonnano Sicilian wing? Frank Matthews had 22 states Ivey, don't just focus on NY. Even Barnes, I mean Harlem was ALWAYS the most lucrative territory in NY right?

Who would have been as big or bigger? Right after THE MAFIA DRUG RING got taken down ( the genovese -ormento group)...

@ Ralphie

I also can't help but notice, it seems your info about black criminals, it's like it's based off characters from a movie like O-Dog from Menace to Society. It just seems like you know NOTHING about actual black criminal organizations and such....

I agree that several factors fell into place at the right time that enabled the mob to become what it was. But it was able to take full advantage of those factors because of the self-perpetuating criminal tradition the Italians had. Otherwise they would have gone the way of the Irish and Jewish mobs.

Sure, establishing ones own supply for drugs is going to improve their position. Did they surpass any given family in the drug trade? Perhaps. But not the entire NY mob - especially if we're talking about overall power and not just position in the drug trade. And thats what the original post seemed to ask. And none of these guys had the kind of diversified criminal base any of the NY families had. A big reason they're all long gone while the Italian mob remains.

The thing is Ivey, drugs bring in more money than probably all the non drug rackets put together.

It's why I find the Godfather so compelling; Vito was so shrewd in that movie. He had the foresight to understand that drugs was similar to prohibition, but it didn't have the publics tacit approval, so it made his organization, more illegal than he wanted it to be. But even that could be overcome by just making bigger bribes because the money was more than anything he could come up with. Despite him having the unions, the politicians, the gambling, HE KNEW IF HE DIDNT CONTROL DRUGS IT WOULD BE THE END OF HIM.
I got to quote I think it was Big Head Brother, " Frank Lucas had NY, Matthews had 22 States!!" You still think he wasn't bigger than LOCAL NY narcotics traffickers?
You read about the top criminal organizations today, it's all drugs, nothing comes close, it's not even an argument and it's ALWAYS been like that...

The real thing that makes or breaks a drug gang is their level of sophistication when it comes to laundering the money, that's when their power really shows. That's what separates the Rizzutos, Calabrians...
It's why the cartels can't really get a foothold here on that level, as much money as they make, Wall Street, Big Oil, Big Pharmacy, all these huge industries, their money will always be cleaner, and easier for a politician to use and justify.

ive said this before, I don't think the " Hierarchy" keeps the NY mob in power so much as the DENSITY of NY as far as population and industry that keeps it alive. When you see cities like Cleveland or Detroit that lose an entire industry, (Steel and Auto industries)crippling the middle class(the people that gamble and drink, and go to night clubs and buy hookers and what ever else) this is the main cause of the decline of the mob in said cities. Esp a city like Cleveland with all the bombs and all that putting the FBI on everyone.
I've noted before how the hierarchy breaks down when narcotics get involved. There is favoritism, cross family alliances regardless of who's actually in charge, and more often than not, the drug guys usually move into the power positions, BIG PART OF THE TIME.. Look at all those long time wealthy " semi- legit " Bronx Luchesse guys, 2 heroin dealers trampled all over em. How does one explain this? Corleones taking over Palermo, Gotti winning over Castellano, Genovese winning over Costello, Casso and Amuso taking over.. There have been so many drug guys in a position of power....

Last few thoughts;

@ralphie


Again, I've never heard anyone say the Irish, or Jewish, or Russians,Albanians, any crime group didn't have the " brains" to start a Cosa Nostra. Because there isn't an ethnic group in existence today in America that could duplicate the feat of having the FBI just simply ignore them.
And if they did, you look at what I posted about Larry Hoover, give him 30 40 years free reign from the FEDs and tell me that organization would be not be something formidable, you are crazy, period.....
You give that guy control of weed in a given city like Chicago, no Feds, no Rico, and a whole mess of politicians with their hands out, I don't give a fuck if the guy is PURPLE WITH BLUE POCADOTS AND STRIPES, as long as young guys can go to the street get RICH with very little consequences, they will keep joining .......
Give a criminal organization control over a widely used, largely accepted commodity like liquor or weed, ignore them on a federal level, leave em all the income possible to corrupt the local and state level police and politicians, ooh and take out RICO please, man you don't have to be a criminal mastermind to win in this setup, come on man...

@ Ivey

Did you,actually,edit,your,post,to sound MORE prejudiced?

What's with all the hypothetical scenarios? What if so and so had been left alone? Let's just look at history, the things that did happen. FACTS!

The Irish, the Jews and the Russians have all GREATLY surpassed black organized crime groups in terms of power and influence. They don't have a mafia type structure, but they are certainly way more clever than most of the black gangsters. I could probably name you 50 major Jewish organized crime figures who've owned hotels, casinos and held major influence throughout the globe. We all know how powerful the Russians are and the Irish have had their share of impressive guys as well. There are no black gangsters like that. Yeah, some of them have made a lot of money through dealing drugs, but by the time they've reached 30 they're all doing life. Larry Hoover? Are you serious? The man has been in prison since he was 23. You're gonna compare him to Meyer Lansky?

There is a reason why African American organized crime groups are little more than footnotes in history books. Even Bumpy Johnson was an embarrassment.

Why does this matter so much to you? I would be happy if all the races didn't have smart gangsters. It's such a cancer in society. It's a blessing that the biggest morons in the black community want to be gangsters. The smart ones go to Harvard and become presidents.

Obama's a white man at heart.

What does that mean? I personally think he's one of the best presidents America has ever had.

die

@ralphie


1. No, you can't name 50 gangsters, I just don't believe you.
2. the Irish transitioned into politics, they left gangs alone a long time ago, the ones that didn't, who, the westies and the Winter hill gang? I'll give you the Canadian west end gang.
Fuck the gang of rats...
3. My point in naming those groups is that NONE OF THEM FORMED A COSA NOSTA STYLE ORGANIZATION, AND THEY WERE RIGHT THERE WITH THE ITALIANS, are they stupid too? Lump the Chinese in there too while you are at it.
4. I gave you a FUCKIN WALL OF FACTS, but kinda like Ivey you pick and choose what you wanna see.
5. What was the guy Giancana muscled out? The black Jones brothers, who had property in all kinda states and businesses and all kinda other shit, but again,you see what your blind eyes tell you..
5. Who the fuck compared myer to Hoover? You are the first to bring him up in this thread, don't put words in my mouth.. That whole thing was showing an organization making inroads into the City and State structure, be blind if you,want, but don't make bullshit stupid statements when you obviously don't know..


6. Where do y'all get this bumpy Johnson was nothing shit? I watched a documentary, where he stepped in for Luciano in prison. When Bumpy got out, and Trigger Mike, Fat Tony, and another one of those big Harlem gangsters told him he was out, Bumpy told em " Ask our friend if he remembers who did him a favor" or something to that effect', they gave him what was his, based off RESPECT
7. You say look at history, so look at it. Look at,prohibition, look at Hoover and his blind FBI
Soon as the Feds started putting Rico em, the BIG rackets started drying up, not the street rackets, the MAFIA rackets. The labor unions, the carting, construction is too big to control, plus it's corrupt,all over.
8. This is the SECOND time you show,up a thread and say some racial goofy shit, without actually even adding anything to the discussion, but I see you in threads fawning over a street guy like BobbyPazzo BECAUSE HES BEEN LOCKED UP, that's some clown shit right there....
9. I'm still,waiting for you guys to name ONE FUCKIN GUY FROM THE TIME PERIOD WHO,WOULDA BEEN BIGGER IN DRUGS, like do y'all have anything to,add beyond .... Nothing?

Jesus, it's like when smeary makes these cartel appreciation threads, photos and all, then ask, why are blacks so violent to each other? This shit is breathtaking, I see why Pizzaboy had to leave...

Bumpy Johnson stepped in for Luciano in prison? You are delusional if you believe that. Trust me my friend, the legend of Bumpy Johnson is a lie, concocted by discredited black historians who wanted their own Al Capone. He was referred to as 'that n---er' by the Italians. That shows respect? This guy couldn't even say no to a foot soldier without getting his head chopped off. He may have been revered by the local African American hoodlums in Harlem, but the Italians saw him as their bitch. They controlled him. Not the other way around.

I don't understand why you take this so personally. What is so great about any of these people? Smart or not, all of them are murderers and despicable human beings. I see nothing cool about any of this. I find it fascinating. I find BobbyPazzo fascinating. Except, I find it fascinating the same way I find animals in a zoo fascinating. It's sad and pathetic. You call that fawning? You're the one who seems to admire these clowns.

I've done nothing but state facts. The first time you started whining was when I said blacks were insanely more likely to commit murder than any other race in America, a fact supported by the FBI and the Department of Justice. You can call that 'racial goofy shit', but those figures don't come from me my friend. You need to learn to handle reality. Take a few deep breaths.

CabriniGreen: One.
Vs
RalphieCipharetto: Zero.

Hey ralphie , do you know me? Did I speak on your name and disrespect you? I know better than to get into a keyboard fight with someone across the country. You've come off ignorant and the more you speak the more foolish you sound. I'm fascinating like animals in the zoo? You comment on almost every thread. Who the fuck are you kidding like you don't got some fantasy about being in the street? Yea, I did time. I also moved the fuck on and left that shit behind me. For you to judge me or even speak about me in a derogatory way is out of line. You're heated because you've been exposed as a bigot and now your shooting recklessly. Like I said... I'm not gonna lose my composure because we'll never cross paths. I won't say another word after this. But do me a favor and don't speak on me. You don't know me and you don't know the first thing I'm about or stand for. I know where I'm from I can walk among any class of people and I have respect and i show the same until the situatuon calls for something different than that. Then, we may dance a different way. Not with you though. Goofball.

I'm not saying you're an animal. Hold your horses. However, I see nothing cool about going to prison. That is sad my friend. If you think that's cool then you need your head checked.

Did I fucking say it was cool? When the fuck did I glorfy that shit? Name one time I didn't say I regretted the shit I did and what it did to the people I love. I made poor choices. I was caught up in the facade of what the lifestyle is about or claims to be about. Where I'm from, it's extremely easy to fall into that trap. It's everywhere you turn in some way, shape, form, or fashion. You got it bro. Backpedal king over here. My story has never changed. Dont know where I lost you.

Very well said Ivy. I think a lot of the guys in here are very young and have seen too many of those movies.

I've never changed my tune or backpedaled, but when you assume someone is a racist for pointing out facts about black organized crime groups then I have every right to defend myself.

I am happy you turned your life around. Hope you do good.

And you basing that on what exactly? It would certainly seem narcotics are the single biggest money maker, based on published figures (even allowing for exaggeration) and statements by law enforcement over the years. But it's an assumption on your part to say drugs alone are a bigger money maker than everything else combined. And that's looking at the entire business as a whole. How much market share each drug dealer or drug organization has is going to vary.



I think you need to go back and watch the movie again. Vito Corleone never changed his opinion. From his meeting with Sollozzo to the meeting with the other bosses, his feeling was drugs would destroy the families because politicians and law enforcement would refuse to look the other way like they did with gambling, liquor, or prostitution. It was the other bosses, not to mention even guys in Vito's own family like Sonny and Tom Hagen, who believed drugs could give them (or their rivals) the means to buy more protection.



What relatively little information there is on Matthews includes information gleaned from wiretaps that his drug organization was doing business in 21 states. Now how big the market was in each state, and how much of the market he had, is a good question to ask. New York was always far and away the biggest heroin market. And, in terms of the sphere of the NY families at the time, you're also talking about New Jersey and some of the surrounding Northeast states.

Matthews, Lucas, and Barnes all operated around the the same general time frame - 1960's and 1970's. The French Connection lasted from the 1950's to the early 1970's and from there the Pizza Connection lasted to the mid 1980's. The $1.6 billion figure for the Pizza Connection is what prosecutors were able to document for the amount of heroin trafficked over a 5 year period between 1979 and 1984.

Nobody is denying all of those guys were big in the drug trade. But, while they were able to bypass the Mafia for their supply in some cases, that's different than saying they surpassed the Mafia, i.e. in terms of being higher up the drug chain or moving more drugs. And for the sake of argument, even if they did, their runs were relatively short-lived.



The existence of a population and industry which the mob can exploit is certainly a factor but it doesn't mean much if there's no mob to exploit it. The single biggest cause of mob families has been attrition - recruiting pools dwindling as Italian Americans moved into the mainstream of society. Look at any recent map of where there are the most Italians in the U.S. It's no coincidence upwards of 90% of the remaining mob membership is in the Northeast.



On one hand, I agree that no other group has had the benefit of so many factors coming together, and at just the right time, that the LCN had. Those were huge reasons for the mob's success. However, on the other hand, there's a reason why it was able to take full advantage of those factors. As I said before, the Italians had the self-perpetuating criminal tradition that the Irish and Jewish mobs didn't. Fast forward to today and the Italians (where they are still a factor) continue to have the hierarchy that many of the newer groups (Russians, Chinese, and Albanian criminal enterprises) don't. These newer groups are more horizontal and fluid, which makes them harder targets for RICO, but also prevents them from growing into the kind of organizations could make them into the kind of criminal threat that many in the past predicted.



I'm not sure what post you're referring to but I haven't said anything prejudiced in this thread.



Ralphie may be taking about how the Outfit moved in and took over the numbers racket in the black communities of Chicago in the 1950's.



I'm not sure where either you or Ralphie are coming from on this. For years, Johnson was the biggest black gangster in Harlem. But he ultimately answered to the Italians. If you ever read A Matter of Honor by the late NYPD offical Remo Franceschini, he talks about how they thought Johnson and other black gangsters controlled the numbers in Harlem. But, when they really investigated it, it was actually the Italians (mainly the Genovese family) who controlled the banks and really called the shots. Johnson was essentially their front man in the black community.



There's certainly a lot of truth to that. In New York, the garment center, food markets, airport, and Javits center are no longer factors. The mob is still involved in waste hauling and recycling but on a much reduced level and it no longer has the benefit of controlling the industry through associations (replaced by the NY BIC) and control of related Teamsters locals. It's maintained a presence on the waterfront, especially the New Jersey ILA locals, but they've taken a beating over the past 10 or 15 years. The one big exception, in my opinion, is construction (and related things like demolition and trucking). The nature of the industry - it's so much bigger, vast, and complicated than the others - provides the mob with seemingly endless ways to be involved. And there hasn't been the kind of widespread industry reform we saw the Giuliani administration do with garbage or the wholesale food markets. That's not to say the mob's clout hasn't been reduced in construction as well but it's far and away where their loss of power has been the most minimal and where they still have the most involvement. Long after everything else is gone, in terms of legitimate industry, the NY mob will still have construction.

stop judging someone you have never met know nothing about never even spoke to you know nothing about this guys life and he has never said that going to prison is "cool" i have known bobby for awhile and never has he ever said that infact he has always said he regrets his past so you know nothing about bobby and then you compare him to an animal so shut the fuck up if you want to argue with half of the board continue not my business but dont start judging someones elses life when you know nothing about him

i wont argue with you i have better things to do but i have said what I want to say

]



Cough.

I didn't compare him to an animal. Saying I'm fascinated with organized crime in the same way I'm fascinated with zoo animals isn't the same thing as saying that Bobby or those who've been to prison are animals. I'm sure some of these people are animals, but Bobby has made it clear that he's changed his life around and I have nothing but the utmost respect for him for doing so. Organized crime characters and zoo animals are two things that are extremely foreign to me, but both share hellish lives and the end is usually never pretty. That to me is sad and pathetic and that's the ONLY thing I meant by that comparison. I apologize for not wording this properly, but again, I have the utmost respect for Bobby and I wish him the very best.

I knew this guy would be exposed sooner than later

sad

Actually, you did compare him to an animal. That's exactly what you did.