Ivy - again you are not addressing my arguments or points, you just simply keep going back to the fact of no cases.. Why is it that you cannot at least meet in the middle and consider the social, economic, and law enforcement climate in Detroit as possible factors why their havent been any cases... It's extemporaneous frustrating and i think why others are getting on your case because you refuse to even consider the others side.. I mean i can sure acknowledge where you're coming from with a lack of cases being proof that the family isn't doing so well but yet you aren't able to see that based on the nature of the area, the resources of le etc....

Also ivy your not acknowledging my point that Detroit has had 1 made guy flip and has never had a huge rico case that took down the upper echelons of the admin for lengthy prison sentences...gametax is the only one and Tocco the boss did a little over a year. How can u argue the lack of mob cases is evidence theyre a struggling barely existant family when they have NEVER had many prosecutions and no significant cases and one rat ever. I mean to me theres your explanation as to why LE hasnt had any cases againgst them.. Bc theyre extemly tight knit, largely intermarried and related members who do not flip...

And by me stating this i am in no way affording them mythical status at all. Im not delusional enough to think theyre running a hugely profitable quiet fam that has their hooks in every facet of life in Detroit... I never once said that and to insinuate that is dumb and inaccurate.

But i will say again look at the outfit family secrets case, the commission case, the scarfo/stanfa cases, the gotti takedown, all the columbo cases , and the massino flipping case... Every other family besides detroit has had major rico indictments that took down multiple capos, bosses and decimated crews... Unless i am missing something Detroit NEVER has.. Gametax came close but their main target Tocco was out in a year... Idk how u can ignore the historical fact that they have not been decimated by LE and have had 1 made guy flip... To me thats crucial evidence proving they are a very secretive close knit family that is very hard to take down in larger scale (i know theyve had smaller cases im not dumb)

I know as a whole all mob families influence and power have diminished so please dont pull that bs that im saying theure all powerful. But u take the lack of le success and couple that w my previous agruments about Detroits other street crimes being focused on, the lack of le resources in general which is well documented, the state and govt funds being allocated to rebuild which u have to admit present opportunities for the mob... AND stability of the org that has had what 4 bosses in 100 years.. And compare that to other families and it's pretty clear that these are extremely valid logical explanations for the lack of mob cases and solid arguments as to the family quietly being in pretty good shape

Again ivy address my solid points and for fucks sake dont give cop out answers like im believing what i want or the lack of cases as ur only proof bc i have given u logical explanations for this.. I for one know ur a smart guy and are a genius researcher but im asking u to at least consider these arguments and concede something is possible, itd go a long way trust me.. Not askin u to agree but u dont have to fuckin just stonewall it and throw in little like digs and shit about delusional, fanboy, or believing what i want.. Not tryin to sound douchy but im not some dumb fuck i have a jd and im from philly i dont give a fuck if the detroit fam is 500 strong or comprised solely of fruitcakes..

Also uve mentioned attrition that theyve had like 30 members die since 2000? That number seems ridiculously high and im sure they have made members since then.. Do u have a source for any of that? Im not callin u a liar at wll, i just feel as if that may be inaccurate.. I have no source for to refute this nor do i have a source stating the fams made guys since, but being that they have a fully functioning administration and have 3-4 crews theres no way they havent had at least 2 making ceremonies in 15 years?