If you're going to start posting numbers, you have to go with the entire NY metro area, which includes all of areas I mentioned earlier in this thread. NYC has something like 8 million people. But the greater NY area has around 20 million. So YOU do the math.



It doesn't irk me. Tooped said he thought that certain Chicago guys at certain times were bigger loansharks than some NY guys listed. Now maybe some of the Outfit guys were bigger than some of the NY guys mentioned previously but, as much as he's tried, it's still not really clear why he would go to that conclusion. Nothing any of you have posted have been convincing in any way that the Outfit guys cited were the biggest. Now, you may say the same to me about Tieri but, we do have the statement by the NYPD and the fact he was a major earner in the family long known for having the biggest gambling and loansharking operations. Yet you guys keep trying to question the possibility of Tieri being the biggest when there's a lot less to support the claim about Chicago guys. That suggests to me you're biased for whatever reason.



I don't have to go to the quote by the NYPD in the 1970s. The fact that the Genovese family has always had the largest gambling and loansharking operations would be a better reason to assume they had the biggest loansharks than any argument you have yet to produce. But like I said, believe what you want. That you keep trying to argue this leads me to believe you WANT to believe something and aren't necessarily looking at this objectivity.

And by the way, why are you talking as if Tieri's loansharking interests were wholly contained in Stein's shy operation?



Why do you keep trying to bring up historical points to make your case when you get them wrong at least half the time?

Gravano was doing really well in the construction rackets under Paul. He joined the plot against Castellano for other reasons including because Paul was planning to break up the Gotti crew, him selling out Piccolo to the Genovese family, etc. The latter wasn't a case of him "cannibalizing" Piccolo (ie for his own benefit) but putting his business relationship with Chin above what benefited his own family and backing one of his captains.



Obviously there have been plenty of disagreements that have required sitdowns. But not fighting. Even with a territory as big as the greater NY area, and the money involved, there's still going to be plenty of greed and those who will try to take whatever they can. But the distinct lack of violence between families in NY over the years shows how successful they were at avoiding contention that ended in bloodshed.




As I said above, you have to look at the greater NY metro area, where the NY families have always operated. Even with multiple families there has evidentally been enough money and then some for them all. A family simply having a given territory all to itself doesn't mean that territory is as lucrative. The Outfit still has all of Chicago to itself today. If it benefited so much from being the lone family in the past, why do we see so few loansharking cases today? If there's any rackets that should have stood the test of time, it's bookmaking and the accompanying loansharking.

If you don't think there's enough "hard evidence" to think Tieri was the biggest loanshark, fine. But, as I keep saying, the fact that the NYPD thought so, and because he was known to be a major earner in the richest and most powerful family long known for having the biggest gambling and loansharking operations is a hell of a lot better reason to assume he was than any of the Chicago guys mentioned.