I don't know if anyone has seen this but kind of interesting



Berkeley students don't have an issue with ISIS or Hamas.
They seem to be disgusted with the thought Israel

Wtf

Being a dhimmi was like being under Jim Crow, but worse in many ways, and not too many people defend Jim Crow laws. Churches and synagogues could not be built or rebuilt if damaged, Jews and Christians could not testify in court against a Muslim, a Muslim man could marry a Jewish or Christian girl and force her to convert and raise their children Muslim, but a Jewish or Christian man could not marry a Muslim female. Jews and Christians were pressured to convert to Islam, but if a Muslim converted he or she could be put to death for apostasy. Jews and Christians often lived in their own communities, which were sometimes raided and pillaged, and the victims could do nothing but complain. And of course there were the persecutions. Doesn't sound too good to me.

Cutting off the trade in papyrus (grown in Egypt) meant an increase in illiteracy in Europe. There was a decrease in metals and spices. Spices were used to preserve food, so more food spoiled and more people went hungry.

As for the barbarians, while some of them were destructive (the Huns, the Vikings, the Vandals and the Goths), they all ended up merging with the other settled peoples and adopted the Latin language. It was also Catholic monks that preserved ancient literature and the university system was created by the Catholic Church, which promoted education, including theology, philosophy and science.

The Spanish Inquisition did not cover all of Europe (only Spain and its colonies, including Latin America) and did not prevent it from developing. It did result in the confiscation of property and the deaths of about 3000-5000 people. That is far less than the number of people killed by Muslims during the same time period. Muslim pirates raided the coastlines of Italy, Spain, France, England and even Iceland for slaves, which often resulted a massive death toll. Muslims also started the East African slave trade around the year 800 which resulted in the deaths of an estimated 30 million Africans. Female slaves often became concubines and their babies were killed, and males were castrated (and this was without anesthesia, and many did not survive this). This is why there are not black communities in places like Iraq and Turkey, etc, since black Africans were prevented from reproducing.

Sorry, but no... you can't play the "X religion has caused more damage to the world than Y religion" game. Islam caused the Dark Ages now too? Did it also cause the inquisitions and burn scientists at the stake?
Yes, Islam did have a negative impact throughout the Middle Ages and it might have been one of the causes of the Dark Ages, but it wasn't the main reason.
Many religions have caused A LOT of damage throughout history, and so have secular regimes like communism and fascism.
I'm saying this as a Christian, even though I don't really practice the rites. I know Islam isn't really popular on these boards (or maybe even the world) nowadays with everything going on with the ISIS, but COME ON, there's a limit to how much you can bash a religion and defend another.

I realize the General Boards is mostly a place where members with similar views come to vent and let off some steam, while agreeing with each other and those who don't are sometimes ganged up on or chased off the (General) boards. I accept it, it's the way it works here so whatever, but if I can be brutally honest, I must say I've also read some of the most ridiculous and extremist opinions in here that I've ever heard in my life, but as I said, I usually take them with a grain of salt because I think they're mostly venting and not 100% serious. (I'm not even talking about the theory you posted Faithful, if anything that might be plausible.)

Anyway my only suggestion to the members here is to be a little more open-minded in debates and trying to see things from different perspectives. However, I agree that with topics like politics and religion it's useless debating since nobody will change their mind, which is why I decided not to post anymore on these boards in such topics (and I don't think I'm the only one) And I know there's also trolls who just enjoy getting a reaction out of someone, but still I think it's important to be a little more friendly and respectful, regardless of somebody's views.
Sorry for the rant, just wanted to get this off my chest as I've seen a lot of hate on this board and it's not pretty.

I've posted that ad nauseam for the past nine years. You've been here for nine months . And that's not sarcasm because you know I like you.


You said that at least two weeks ago. Just saying.


Generally the person who creates the thread, then sits back and gleefully watches it mushroom (not in this case, though, NickyScarfo is a great kid and I vouch for him personally).


It's not going away. The best thing you can do is learn to stop clicking on topics that you KNOW are going to bother you. I do it in the OC section all day long.

I'm not out to bash any religion and there's no reason for you to take my posts that way. This is coming from several historians, not from me. The Islamic conquests had an impact. Not the only impact, but a major impact. I don't see why that's hard to accept. Also don't see the need for the sarcastic responses about the Inquisition, etc. Really don't understand why you're so offended.

Thanks PB! Iv'e enjoyed your posts since I came here in 2011 !

PB, I just wanted to say it like I see it. I've been messaged by different people, many of them pretty solid guys in here who refrain from posting their opinion on this board because they'd be ostracized and alienated, so I wasn't only speaking for myself there. Even those who do engage, they rarely put much effort into the debate because they know they're outnumbered so it's useless.

I'm pretty sure they would be more than able to hold their own in the debates here, but they choose not to, and I don't blame them. As soon as somebody has a different opinion from the rest of the group, things get pretty heated, even when it's not about any hot topic like religion or politics.
Anyway, you're right buddy... bitching about it won't solve a thing so it's better to just leave it be. I'd PM you more details but you disabled it and I don't feel this warrants an email, especially with all that's going on in your life right now.

Faithful, I assure you I'm not offended and I didn't mean to snap at you personally, I think you're one of the greatest posters in the OC forum, it's just that after a while the same old crap that goes on here gets boring. I love these boards and I don't think an aggressive climate is what the admins were hoping for when they created it.
I know the theory you're talking about, it comes form a 1930's book "Mohammed et Charlemagne." It does make some good points but I don't believe it was ever fully accepted among the historians. Regardless, as I said above I'd rather not continue the debate here.

I think you got the Dhimmi and Jizya system wrong. First of all churches and synagogues were allowed to be built and repaired but only if there was an okay from the government.
It is true that Jews and Christians couldn't testify against a Mulsim. But they were allowed to have their own legal systems and they were allowed to practice their religion as long as they didn't try to convert a muslim. From what I know Minority religions were treated pretty good compared to the west in Islamic countries, and yes Islamic countries did have their flaws and bad sides. But look at when the Jews were persecuted in Europe, they were accepted in the Muslim world. I don't think that I can convince you that Islamic tolerance was a good thing during that time, but if you have the time for it I would like to ask you to look at the other side of criticizing Islam and maybe investigate the tolerant side of it?

And btw the time during the barbary piracy was also the time when the colonisation of America started and I dont think that ended well for the Native Americans. Also look at the treatment of Africa and Asia during the time of imperialism. I can only conclude that both Christian and Islamic rulers harmed the world in different ways. This discussion is starting to become more like a ''your religion was worse than mine'' discussion.

OK fellas, and ladies, I'm the one who brought up the middle ages, the renaissance and Islam. I was reaching for a possible explanation about the "Islam is part of the fabric of the country" line. That line used by the president is 100% BS and it was rightfully called out. Neither Obama nor his staff are idiots,they know the statement is inaccurate, so this was done for some kind of political effect.

They know the climate in America now so they absolutely know that objective people from both sides are going to write that what he said was a lie. They know that certain factions are going to lie and agree with him and that other factions will destroy him for it and add unrelated jabs in doing so.
I think the White House is trying to bait a potential Rep. nominee for 2016 in putting his/her foot in mouth in a way that will come back and haunt them.

Now, back to historical atrocities.This country was founded by people fleeing religious persecution in Europe.Sometimes we may not think of certain things as "Christian" atrocities or terrorism in the same way we see "Muslim" atrocities but if you take a closer look and you don't have a dog in the fight..you can see the similarities.

Now today in 2015..what these Muslim terrorists are doing to innocent people is evil..whether it's kidnapping girls in Nigeria or beheading neutral journalists. This is not the Cold War era anymore and the US cannot be the world's police and put out every fire. I'm gonna step back and read a lot more about what's going on because I get the feeling that we are being manipulated again.

I agree Getts; we need to step back just as Emily Latella did in her editorial on SNL:

What's all this talk about destroying ices and who is this West guy that wants to do that. I like ices, especially Italian ices. There's banana ices, cherry ices, lemon ices, lime ices. I like them all. Why would anyone want to destroy them?

I agree that Obama and his staff aren't idiots, but the words reflect his own personal beliefs. We have to consider his influences and his education. His father and stepfather were both Muslims, he attended a Muslim school in Indonesia and he was identified at that time as a Muslim. His mother and his maternal grandparents were political on the Far Left and he came under influence of a Communist named Frank Marshall Davis. After high school he moved to Southern California and attended Occidental College then transferred to Columbia in New York. He never released his transcripts so we don't know what he studied, except it has been revealed that he studied under Edward Said, an anti-Israel and pro-Palestinian professor of comparative literature, the author of "Orientalism," and a member of the governing body over the PLO. After Columbia he attended Harvard Law and graduated with a law degree then went to Chicago and became a community organizer. While in Chicago he taught at the University of Chicago.

Obama started attending Trinity United Methodist Church in 1987 and became a member there in 1992. Pastor Jeremiah Wright did not teach traditional Methodist theology but the Black Liberation Theology of Marxist theologian James Cone. Obama said he became a Christian as an adult, but did not specify when that was, but it's safe to assume that his version of Christianity probably was similar to Wright's. Pastor Wright married Barack and Michelle Robinson. Obama continued to attend Trinity until he ran for President in 2008.

In the 1990s he was connected with Bill Ayers and his wife Bernadine Dorhn. Both were former leaders of the radical domestic terrorist group The Weather Underground and call themselves communists "with a little c". While leading the WU the group planted numerous bombs across the country. Dohrn is believed by the FBI and the San Francisco police of planting a bomb that killed a police officer. She was placed on the FBI's Most Wanted list in 1973 and was a fugitive until 1980. Her father got her a job with a law firm (although she did not have a law degree at the time), and both Ayers and Dorhn ended up teaching at the university level after completing their degrees. Ayers also became an adviser to Mayor Richard Daley. Ayers and Obama worked together on an Annenberg education project in 1995 that lost several million dollars, and Ayers hosted a coffee "meet and great" for Obama at his home when Obama ran for the state senate in 1995. Ayers said he didn't know who Obama was at the time and said they were only associates while others said they were friends until the early 2000s. In an interview with the Daily Beast, Ayers said they were friendly. They were also connected through a political party called the New Party.

In 2008 it came out that Obama's sponsor to Harvard Law was Khalid al-Mansour an antisemitic and anti-white Muslim attorney and close adviser to a Saudi prince and was involved with funding schools that taught Wahhabi theology around the world. He was born Don Warden and helped start the Black Panthers, but left the group after it began connecting with white radical groups.

So Obama had a lot of positive experiences and received a lot of influence from Muslims and the Palestinian cause. It explains his adversarial relationship to Netenyahu and his willingness to make a nuclear deal with Iran. When Obama said that "Islam is part of the fabric of the country" he may have meant in the present and not at the founding. So I don't think this is some sort of political bait, but his beliefs, his ideology.

Before this country was founded there were some groups escaping religions persecution: the Separatists (Pilgrims), the Puritans, the Quakers, and in the French southeast, the Huguenots (French Calvinists). They were all Protestant groups and did little persecution themselves, aside from the Salem Witch Trials. Most of the European persecution was committed by the Roman Catholic Church and Catholic rulers. In France in 1572 there was a genocide committed against Huguenots, and they were responsible for the Inquisition. Mary I of England persecuted Protestants and many went into exile during her reign. However, none of the examples of Catholic persecution compares to the number of murders committed by extremist Muslim groups over the past twenty years.

My concern, and I'm only speaking for myself, is that the extremist Muslim groups are succeeding. If left unchecked it could very well take over much of north and central Africa and the entire Middle East. There may be a time when Iran will have to reconsider its hatred toward Israel because it is the most powerful enemy of ISIS. Jordan is relatively weak, and Egypt is still in turmoil despite the fact that the current government is making all the right moves. I can also see ISIS, if it's around long enough, trying to take over France and Italy. ISIS and its extremist allies are trying to lead us into World War III.

With this in mind we can ask ourselves, if it would have been better to have taken out Hitler early when he invaded Alsace-Lorraine, wouldn't also be better to take out ISIS before it takes over much more of the world? To do that, the USA may have to get involved much more so than it is now.

@F

This is the recent statement

"Here in America, Islam has been woven into the fabric of our country since its founding. Generations of Muslim immigrants came here and went to work as farmers and merchants and factory workers, helped to lay railroads and build up America. The first Islamic center in New York City was founded in the 1890s. America’s first mosque [founded in 1929] — this was an interesting fact — was in North Dakota."

the bolded part is wrong..and i have some audiobooks to listen through because i think he may be wrong about the date of the first mosque. think earlier mosques might have been constructed in jersey or philly by noble drew ali.

They have similarities in regards to how they repress knowledge and atrocities but as enemies Hitler and the Nazis are a different than ISIS. ISIS has factions all over the world so fighting a singular enemy will be difficult.

Long road ahead of us and unfortunately after taking out ISIS we will still have Boko Haram, al-Qaeda and Hamas

That's why I said the fight has to be against Islamic extremism, and ISIS is the dominant group. As for the Nazis, we (the Americans) had to fight them in North Africa before we took them on in Europe, so they were pretty spread out too.

Yes, Ali opened the Canaanite Temple in Newark in 1913, but it wasn't true Islam, more of an amalgamation of many beliefs. The first orthodox Muslim mosque was in North Dakota in 1929 (as you wrote), founded by Lebanese immigrants.

faithful 1 why didn't we know all about Obama when he ran his presidential race? I had no idea he had associates like the ones mentioned in your post.

I had no idea he was that close to the muslim faith, however recent events confirm your post as being true, and factful. why must we finds most things about a president when they already have the reins of power.

the more I read your post, the more I feel I have been misled, and lied to by this president. and you are true on about stopping isis now.

why don't we ever learn from history?

Don't see where I said that you didn't say Islamic extremist. I said we had a long road ahead of us with all the separate groups we have to destroy.



No doubt but Nazi were a different enemy, different type of warfare.

Thanks...just listened to a chapter about the history of Islam and Africans in the Americas practicing Islam in Manning Marable's book about Malcolm X.That's the best part of the book, actually but it glosses over the Arab slave trade..and makes unsubstantiated claims about other things.
Yes,what Ali practiced was not orthodox Islam.

I think that if immigration patterns of Middle Eastern people are traced...there would have to be a record of a building used as a mosque before 1929 though (Obama said it and I just wrote the quote).

If you had a group of 10 or more immigrants from a country where Islam was the main religion, within a year they would be using some standing structure as a mosque...and a year after that an actual mosque would be built or building purchased to be used as mosque.

I'm certain that there existed Roman Catholic churches here before the large wave of Irish immigrants, but surely many more sprung up immediately after that.

1929 sounds too late.

Then we agree



No doubt but Nazi were a different enemy, different type of warfare. [/quote]

Yes, but they're the closest analogy. In fact, the early Muslim Brotherhood and the Mufti of Jerusalem both worked with the Nazis to exterminate Jews.

Found a reference that says that the first mosque was in Brooklyn in 1920. Muslim immigration didn't really start until c1878 with a group of Syrians and Lebanese -- the people who eventually started the mosque in North Dakota. Before that, with few exceptions, the only Muslims in America were captured slaves. It is estimated that about 10-15% of African slaves were Muslims, but once enslaved they were forced to stop practicing and most converted.

The book I cited is a very good book on the history of Islam in America: https://books.google.com/books?id=xKsLCx...que&f=false

I've read Marable before and may have one of his book somewhere, but he's a bit too Marxist for my tastes.

thanks

In Obama's statement, his writer crafted the line about North Dakota to be the chaser.The same way that you might chase a shot with fruit juice. Saying North Dakota, doesn't evoke the same perceptions as saying New York so saying that the first mosque was in ND in 1929..ND...middle america.is supposed to bolster the lie about Islam being sewn into the fabric of America.

I was aware of the % of enslaved Africans who were said to be Moslems. The European slave trade lasted so long that they had it down to a science and slavers specifically requested Africans from specific regions for specific types of labor.Historians are able to guess the percentage based on region.Marable's book puts the number at 8 to 9%

I dismissed that as what Obama could have been talking about because that would make no sense. Christian slavers forced Africans to convert and/or give up their religious practices.

Isis took control of Ramadi which is about 79 miles from Baghdad

[Edit]
New says ISIS is claiming they have taken control

how many times have we been told by our military that the Iraqi army is going to take care of the fighting from now on.

they ran away again. when are we going to understand that the Iraqi army can not do the job.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/p...518-gh4f3q.html

Not exactly related to ISIS but related to Islam and the Middle East and the Christian vs. Islam thing

http://madworldnews.com/bible-name-god-antichrist/

interesting link, the middle east is where all of the armies will gather in the last days. it could be closer than we think.

thank you for the link.

Lions of Rojava if anyone is interested look them up. I have a buddy that just signed up. You will be a mercenary but earning six figures and by that I don't mean 100,000. There are no rules of war to follow since no country has declared war. So the basic principle is find the cells and kill them however you can.

This is one of the leaders they killed. Contrary to popular belief it was not our Special Forces it was the mercenaries that got him. Obama was trying to take credit but the story got out.

Sounds kind of like Blackwater