It is appropriate to say "Happy Ramadan". It is not exactly a holiday though, it is the ninth month in the Muslim calendar and as you may know this calendar is based on the moon so it is not fixed. Ramadan like all other months of this calendar can be observed anytime in the year, months are being shifted like 10 days each year compared to the 365 days calendar that is based on the Sun. During this month those who practice Islam and have the ability should fast from sunrise to sunset. The first day of the following month is being observed as the holiday of Ramadan, which is called "Fitre". On this day Muslims celebrate their ability to follow order of God to fast for a month and every Muslim family gives out food to poor. The amount of food depends on the number of family members. Also on this day nobody should fast. It is said that Quran has been presented as a whole book to the prophet in this month.

I'm not practicing Islam but I don't think that "happy Ramadan" really fits. It is exactly like "Day of Atonement" in the Jewish practice and it is more solemn than anything. I think it is more appropriate to say "happy Fitre" at the end of Ramadan, that fits better but Muslims would not being offended by saying "happy Ramadan" either, actually what lately I've seen them doing is to promote "Happy Ramadan" more than ever. That was just my personal opinion of someone who has been in direct touch with this religion.

So I'm guessing that we will not hear Cat Stevens (Yusef Islam) singing "Feliz Ramadan" anytime soon?

Feliz Ramadan? Well, I still think "Feliz Fitre" is more appropriate. Although, you never know, nowadays you hear so many things that are not in a religion but are being said or being attributed to it, so I'll not be surprised if Cat Stevens sings Feliz Ramadan might as well!

I have to disagree here. Christmas is celebrated by many, not just Christians. All my athiest and most Jewish friends "celebrate" Christmas: most have Christmas trees, outdoor lights, exchange gifts with family and friends, etc. What non-Christians do NOT celebrate, necessarily, is the Birth of Christ. While for Christians these go hand-in-hand, for others, they don't. And none of my athiest or Jewish friends have a problem with it. Some even have religious-type decorations.

Santa Claus represents the spirit of Christmas, sure. He was based on St Nicholas (Santa's name came from the Dutch Sint Nikolaas), as is a fairly new concept (as we know Santa, only since the 1800's in America). Here is a brief history if anyone's interested.

In any event, while Santa has traditionally represented a religious icon, nowadays you have to admit he's used to sell toys and used by parents to threaten their kids to be good!

Man, I'm just gonna call you Ebenezer Scrooge from now on! :p You left out the "Bah, humbug!!"

I just don't see it that way, so, what can I say? It's not like the government is holding religious masses on the steps of every county courthouse and forcing everyone to attend.

I guess I could see how a nativity scene or a display of The 10 Commandments may offend some people. (Altho the latter is Judeo-Christian). I'm not gonna repeat my previous post, but will just say: I wouldn't be offended at all if other groups celebrated their own holidays with the same enthusiasm.

Opinion noted.

BTW - Do you object to the word holiday, being that its etymology is from the Old English for "Holy Day"? See, I thought "happy holidays" was P.C., and I say it all the time myself. But maybe I should now stop since it may offend someone who doesn't think it's holy at all. Dag, now what? :p

I'm an athiest. Christmas is my favourite time of the year. The rest is bullshit and you know it.

Mick

In the words of Cosmo Kramer, "You're freakin' me out!" Holiday - from the Old English "Holy Day". Holy Shiite, I can get the connection. Don't most European substitute "vacation" for HOLIDAY? What are they thinking? They could be offending someone! Good thing we have that First Amendment stuff to keep things in line. I'm all for separating that Church and State; like the wheat and the chaff, the cream from the milk, the rich from the poor.

In the interest of Constitutional Unity let's invoke the Costanza holiday of Festevus (for the rest of us). Now that's a real Holi-day!

I think your all crazy. :rolleyes:

Gee, if non-christians don't celebrate Christmas (as Plaw claims), there are quite a bit of consumers out buying gifts for NO reason. :p

I don't see how the clause in the constitution is even relevant; a Christmas concert featuring religious selections is not ADVOCATING a particular religion, or promoting the establishment thereof. And as I said, there are plenty of taxpayer dollars the come from as many, if not more, people who are not offended, and in the majority.

I buy gifts for business associates and clients because it is expected of me, not because I'm "celebrating" a holiday.

That's a matter of interpretation. If a Catholic Church holds a Christmas concert with religiously themed music, they are promoting their religion. But if the same music is played at a public school concert, you don't see how some people could construe that as promoting Christianity? Everything in this country is not about what the majority wants.

I'll give you one example, and I'll pick one that runs counter to my usually liberal viewpoint:

If I own a building and have an apartment to rent, the law says that I cannot discriminate by not renting it to someone bsed on their color, religion, etc.

But I say "It's my private property. I should have the right to do with it as I wish".

I believe that a vast majority of Americans would agree with my position, yet we have laws that state otherwise in order to protect the minority from discrimination.

Surprisingly I'm with Plaw on this one. What it comes down to is culture and change. People don't like change and especially when it's religious tradition that is lost. No one will read this but let me quote a little anecdote that I've mentioned before.

Start with a cage containing five apes In the cage, hang a banana on a string and put stairs under it. Before long, an ape will go to the stairs and start to climb towards the Banana. As soon as he touches the stairs, spray all of the apes with cold water.

After a while, another ape makes an attempt with the same result -all the apes are sprayed with cold water.

Turn off the cold water.

If, later, another ape tries to climb the stairs, the other apes will try to prevent it even though no water sprays them.

Now, remove one ape from the cage and replace it with a new one. The New ape sees the banana and wants to climb the stairs. To his horror, all of the other apes attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries to climb the stairs, he will be assaulted.

Next, remove another of the original five apes and replace it with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The previous Newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.

Again, replace a third original ape with a new one. The new one makes it to the stairs and is attacked as well.

Two of the four apes that beat him have no idea why they weren't permitted to climb the stairs, or why they are participating in the beating of the newest ape.

After replacing the fourth and fifth original apes, all the apes which have been sprayed with cold water have been replaced. Nevertheless, no ape ever again approaches the stairs.

Why not?

"Because that's the way it's always been around here."

Sometimes it's time for things to change.

You're right. Christmas has nothing to do with religion. It's all about pwesents pwesents pwesents. Jebus who?

So just because times change, we all of the sudden have a bunch of paranoid lefties getting their shorts twisted over something that's been a part of American culture for the last century, at least (holiday concerts at schoolhouses)?

I don't see how anyone is promoting religion by having a concert that, by some sheer coincidence, happens to have a song or two that features a religious theme (which, also coincidentally, is the reason there is a holiday to begin with. There wouldn't even be an issue here ABOUT it if Christians and Jews didn't celebrate Chaunakah and Christmas. You wouldn't even get Festivus, if it was the left's view. We'll just have to start having generic holidays). Good golly miss molly. How are we "hurting" anyone by doing that? By having a song that says the world "Jehovah," or "Jesus," good God (literally)!

I continue to enjoy the pertinent leftist agenda that continues the downward spiral of moral values and ethics, until we end up with Orwellian organizations against such things as love, religion, and war.

Funny, and I thought they blamed the right for our eccentrism.

No mate, what I'm saying is, you get used to something because it's a part of your culture and tradition and it doesn't feel right when it's taken away. I really understand that. But because "that's the way it's always been around here" doesn't mean it should stay that way. That was the point of the Ape anecdote.

Orwellian values are traditionally associated with the far right. Animal Farm is an attack of leftism views but 1984 is clearly an attack on totalitarianism. But the Orwellian organizations you refer to are easily the result of control from the right.

Excuse me while I load my Mossberg and read my copy of American Rifleman. Soon I will be moving to my new compound in Idaho, JJ, Don Cardi, Sicilian Mafia, Don Michael Corleone and Mr. Baggins are all invited to stay.

Excuse me while I put a flower in the barrel of my rifle and read my copy of The New York Times. Soon I will be moving to my new commune in Massachussetts. Patrick, Senza Mama, Don Ferro, Dons Advisor, and Flopsie & Mopsie are all invited to stay.

THIS IS IN NO WAY AN ATTACK ON ANY SPECIIFIC RELIGION, BUT IS JUST A SINCERE QUESTION ON MY PART.


I have stayed out of this debate....up until now. I have read the different feelings and opinions regarding this whole debate. Basically it seems as though most who are against have quoted the seperaton of church and state. I am not taking a side here, but if the seperation of church and state applies to public schools, than maybe someone could answer this :

Pubic schools no longer label thier week off for Christmas "Christmas Vacation." It is now reffered to as "Winter Reccess."

Public school's no longer label thier week off for Easter "Easter Vacation." It is now refferred to as "Spring Recess."

Obviously these Public School vacation names were changed because it would not be a seperation of church and state if the vacations were labeled for a specific religious holiday, etc. I have NO problem with this.

Now the question is, if these holidays are not supposed to be recognized by the public school system, than why is it, in the begining of the school year, a letter is sent home with the public school children, by the public school system anouncing that the public schools will be closed in observance of YOM KIPPER and RUSHASHANNA!!! Where is the speration of church and state here?

AGAIN. I AM NOT PICKING ON THE JEWISH RELIGION, AS I HAVE MANY JEWISH FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT I RESPECT AND LOVE, AND I HAVE A HIGH REGARD FOR THE JEWISH FAITH!

But it turns out that these two holidays are the only religious holidays granted a day off on my child's public schoool calender! As far as I am concerned it wouldn't bother me one bit if all religions were listed on the calender.


Don Cardi

The school closings for those two holidays is more of an economic decision than anything else. The New York City school system has a very sizable Jewish population (both student and teacher) and the fact that this percentage would be absent for those holidays is the determining factor in closing the schools.

I suspect the public schools in, lets say, Wyoming, wouldn't be closed on those days (for the same reason - the percentage of Jewish students is probably very low).

Right. But my thought is that the left seemingly wants our society to reach a point of bland-ness, of seemingly generic mush so as not to offend anyone. For instance, a public school Christmas...err, holiday concert. The school is using taxpayer dollars to fund the education of the children, and funding the use of the building for them (the children) to express what they have been working on during the semester.

Yet, because some selections may have some sort of religious connotation, we are all of the sudden offending someone? Now, the school is advocating and promoting a specific religion, and encouraging the establishment thereof?

I seriously don't see how a school concert is advocating the establishment of a national religion. Goodness gracious, again, I see the logic of the left - legalize prostitution, but we can't say God in school.

This is nauseating.

Mick

I find it offensive that some people are offended. :p :p

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Don Cardi, as I do not have a NYC Public School Calendar, but......

What we, in our public school days used to call "Christmas Vacation" would very often vary in length, depending upon the days of the week on which Christmas Day and New Year's day fell.

In other words, if both fell on a Sunday, we would only be off from school the Monday through Friday in between.

But if both fell on a Thursday, we would be off Wednesday Dec 24th (Christmas Eve) through the following Friday (Jan 2).

If my recollection is correct, we were always off the day of Christmas Eve.

So here's my question:

Since Christmas falls on a Saturday this year, are the schools closed on Friday December 24th?

Because if they are, although it's being called "Winter Break" or whatever, closing the schools for the extra day on Friday is, in effect, for a "religious holiday", since if Christmas fell on Sunday, the schools would not be closed on Friday.

As I say, this is how I remember it and I could be wrong. But since you have a copy of the public school schedule, I'd be curious to know.

I also seem to also remember that school was closed for "Easter Vacation" on Good Friday, which, if that policy is still in effect, is closing schools on that day for religious reasons as well.

SC is correct about the economic realities. I believe that the city gets money from the state based on attendance, and it makes more economic sense to close the schools on a day when there would be many absentees, and, in turn, extend the school year by a day or two, or start a day or two earlier.

Finally, in the interest of "Political Correctness", and to be assured in the future that no one will be offended, I suggest changing the name of the reason for closing the schools from "Observance of Rosh Hashanah" and "Observance of Yom Kippur" to "Early Fall Holiday Number 1", and "Early Fall Holiday Number 2".

PLaw,

Here in CA (at least in my county), schools are closed from Dec. 20 thru Jan. 2. It IS called Winter Break. Although I am at a year round school, the traditional schools get the same dates off for Christmas. It's always a two week break for us, and we never end or begin our break in midweek. It's always two consecutive Mondays - Fridays.

Our Spring Break is in April, and not any longer the week of Easter. Every now and then, it falls the week of Easter. Although, myself, being year round, do not get a spring break, unless I take some personal vacation time in that period. Yet, when our school was traditional, I cannot tell you how many times parents will call the school and be shocked that our break wasn't the week of Easter. We'd have to explain that it was a "Spring Break" not an Easter break.

TIS

TIS, are your schools closed for any Jewish holidays?

Also, in a previous post in this thread, I neglected to invite you and SaladBar to my Massachusetts commune.

Plaw,

Let me first respond to SC's explaination regarding as to the reason the schools close for those two days. SC has brought up a very good point and has given me the answer to my original question. It makes 100% sense!

Now getting to your post, the kids are off from Friday the 24th to Sunday the 2nd. And for the spring break vacation, that is exactly what they have off for this year, spring break. However, they do have off for good friday. So both you and SC are both correct. You in pointing out that the kids will get the friday off for Christmas, and good friday off, and SC's explaination that the schools make these decisions based on finacial reasons. Thank you both for clearing this up for me. Oh and Plaw, those alternate names for those jewish holidays, not neccesary in my eyes as I really beleive that all religions should get the proper recognition by thier named days and they all should receive the proper respect! But your idea was a cute one!

Let me close by saying again, that my question was not intended to offend anyone. If the two days that I brought up were Christian holidays, or Islamic holidays, I would have asked the same question. But I just want to make it perfectly clear that I would never set out to offend anyone's religious beliefs, especially the two of you, who I really have the most admiration and respect for.


Don Cardi

PLaw,

Although our schools are NOT closed for any Jewish Holidays, we do have 3 Jewish teachers, one of whom takes the day off (excused absence) for all of these holidays (don't know if others are not practicing Jews, or just don't take the time off).

As far as the students go, in CA the only excused absences are Dr. App'ts, Illness and Court appearances. However, any religious holiday and/or service (i.e. Ash Wednesday), we are required to "excuse" the absence. I've never really had any problems with anyone taking off for religious purposes, and have never heard any comments one way or another from any staff/parent or student.

BTW, thaks for the invite to the Mass. Commune. Haven't heard that word in a while. Is this like a "flower power", "make love not war" type commune. :p I'll dig out my bell bottoms and love beads.

TIS

Are the bell bottoms and beads BLUE?

Peace Baby!

Don Cardi

This is getting quite ridiculous.

What's the difference between schools in NYC or anywhere else with a large Jewish population being closed for Jewish holidays due to lack of overall attendance (which is fine) versus: most of the United States of America which has a huge Christian population all over getting the same courtesy on Christmas Eve and Good Friday??



I'm about done with this grasping for straws and nitpicking and stand by my original posts. Agree or not, I respect your opinions. No one's gonna "win" this argument, as innocent as this discussion seemed in the beginning. :p

And I noticed I wasn't invited to either commune. :p Just as well, I'm too messy and stay up too late!

Nothing wrong with it at all.

Don Cardi implied, or maybe I just inferred, that since they changed the vacation names from Christmas and Easter to Winter and Spring, the Christian school population didn't have any religious holidays off, while the Jewish school population did.

My question about extra days being added to the vacation to accomodate Christmas Eve when necessary, and Good Friday, was meant to illustrate that they were, in fact, being given extra time off for religious reasons, even if the vacation period itself is named something else.

Why they renamed the vacation periods is still a mystery. To me, and I think to most NYC school kids and their parents, it's still "Christmas Vacation" and "Easter Vacation", and always will be.

Oh, and BTW, you're not far enough to the left to join my commune. You have to be almost a communist, like Patrick.

Plaw, I saw post after post regarding a controversy over Christamas, which in fact is the TITLE of this post. I did not reply to any right away, but instead ingested everything that was said. Than after ingesting all these veiws and opinions about Christmas, I pulled out my child's public school calender and upon looking it over I found those two days listed and was sincerely curious as to why no religious references were made by the schools to any of the other holidays accept those two days. I never implied anything! I came right out and asked it! SC answered it and you contributed to SC's answer! Nothing more to discuss! End of story!


Don Cardi