Faith is just that, faith, hope...and I suppose it is susceptible to more insecurity than atheism which relies on actual evidence. I cant understand basing my life and beliefs on a "wing and a prayer" but we all sometimes need a bit of hope I suppose and life would be boring if all we relied on was evidence...is that a compromise???

No reason at all. He was a capitalist. Just like the televangelists who sell a billion religious books a year. Nothing wrong with capitalism. My point was, in that regard he was no different than they are. In it for the money.


Why would a believer want a retort to his belief system? It's anathema to the entire point. I feel I'm right, and I don't shove it down anyone's throat.

Well, we're all capatilists by that definition

Well, thats the main, HUGE point youve just made ..a believer never wants or will ever accept a retort to his/her belief, just simply because it is a belief, which, to some extent, controls your personality etc. To have that questioned sets anyones mind in a spin. But its about exploring how religion, NOT, just one strand of its beliefs, fit it with society. We cant decide whos right, so everyone needs a place apparently...

Religion is what it is, every believes in essentially the same thing and argue amongst each other for righteousness, land, money, popularity etc...Again, THATS what pisses me off, why not just be private, like most other people who do what they do..

Re-read your first point, and sorry, I picked it up wrong PB. Yes, he made money from his few books based on religion, but he wrote far, far, more on other subjects. He wasn't a Dawkins who basically writes about evolution these day, he was honestly a great writer, especially on the US constitution (positively), you would like him I reckon...

First, "personal/private faith advantage" -- what does that mean? People who don't talk about their beliefs? Not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Second, it's not a "random madman," but a very recent example. I'm sure you can give examples of "religious people" doing bad things, especially with so many different religions. I can also give other examples. The point is this was in response to your fallacy of special pleading that exempted atheists from evildoing while everyone else is apparently guilty of it.

Third, I never said you were a Communist. Nevertheless it is true that Communism is atheistic. Marx, Engels and Lenin were all atheists. So was Stalin, Mao, Ceaușescu, Kim Il whoever of North Korea, Castro, Pol Pot, the French Revolutionary leaders, Calles of Mexico, etc. It is also true that all of these regimes persecuted Christians and committed atrocities. So you cannot honestly say that atheism and atheists are innocent of genocide and other heinous crimes.

Fourth, it's also false to assert that no religion has evidence for its beliefs. We can discuss that on another thread. By the way, faith means "trust" as well as a synonym for religious belief, and trust is placed on fact and credibility. Maybe some religions or beliefs have "blind faith," but that doesn't mean that all do. That's a hasty generalization and it assumes facts not in evidence. On the other hand, I can claim that it takes more faith, more blind faith, to be an atheist. Atheists assume the existence of truth, but if their thoughts are just random electrochemical reactions then it is impossible to know if their thoughts are accurate or anything else for that matter.

Fifth, as for the mockery that you admit that you do, mockery breeds contempt, and contempt can breed hostility. I prefer to have a friendly dialogue. I may challenge your beliefs, but mockery doesn't make friends with anyone. Try bringing that mockery to a mosque and see what happens.

Faithfull, Ive said it perhaps too many times now...personal faith is great, when it turns into a need to impress it on everybody, its a problem.

2nd point, random DOESNT mean recent. And he is a lone madman...youre not honestly saying your worried by random atheist attacks?

Technically, no I cant, but the evil dictators you mention didn't base their genocide on religion, again, you honestly think atheism causes violence?

You are "taking the piss"!!! Faithfull, you honestly think science is based on an "assumption of truth"? Id like you to tell me that if you ever are unlucky enough to have a major op (I never had, incase you draw conclusions)

Lastly, Yes, just try mocking the wrong religion.....you'll see... (Undertone of a threat).....

Faithfull, if I was doing bad, your having a nightmare just now.....

I maybe didn't answer your first point clearly enough FF, personal/private faith is fairly self explanatory, you believe, like Binnie said earlier, in jesus and, Ill paraphrase slightly (correct me if Im wrong Binnie), him being your saviour etc and if you don't believe well you can piss off basically. I think thats great, Binnie has his belief, I have mine, and we are fine. Hes not adding, btw, all gays should not marry, blacks are cursed, woman are 2nd class citizens to back up some some skewed politically fantasy. yes, I am throwing together a few religions, but its hard to keep up with all the different prejudices the heads of these religions think are appropriate.

fergie, if you have a problem with Ivy sharing his beliefs or "impress it on everybody" as you put it, why is it okay for YOU to do it?

No, I'm not worried about random atheist attacks, nor am I worried about random Christian attacks, random Jewish attacks, random Buddhist attacks, random Mormon attacks, random Jehovah's Witness attacks, etc. But when it comes to religious persecution in the world today, the two primary religions (which we can define here as "a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance" or as our "ultimate concern") that are most responsible are Islam and atheism.

I'm "taking the piss"? I had to look that one up since we don't say that in the USA. It means to mock or make fun of something. No, I wasn't taking the piss as you say. Yes, science is based on truth. It's called rational empiricism, and its foundation is mathematics and beyond that the laws of logic, which in turn are derived from God's nature. If science wasn't based on truth then what may be true one day could be false the next and back. Without consistency it would come to a standstill. What do you think science rests on? Falsehood? Chaos? It rests on the Law of Identity and the Law of Noncontradiction.

As for unpleasant things that religious people believe, atheists aren't immune to racism, pedophilia, and all kinds of bad things. I once worked with an atheist Neo-Nazi who hated blacks, Jews and Christians, so whatever ad hominen attack you want to throw out, it can be thrown back right at you.

On the last one, that wasn't my threat, but a reality in today's world. Why do you think the Danish and French cartoonists were killed? It's because they mocked Islam. I'm not saying that they deserved to be killed so don't go there, but there is a reason why they were killed. They just thought they could joke and mock without consequences. It looks like you think that making fun or "taking the piss" of other people's beliefs is big joke, but for others it's seriously deadly. If there's a good reason NOT to mock the beliefs of others, it's that. Another reason is that it's offensive and people won't take you seriously. If you want to change people's minds it won't happen by insulting them or their beliefs.

Exactly. Ivy imposes his will on everybody. Buy it's okay for Fergie to mock my faith in a "fairytale."

Ok, we should maybe just park it and move on eh....

I said that seven pages ago, kiddo .

Yes I know, and you were right

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in"...!

You don't have to take my word for it. Read the Constitution. Unless somebody with an agenda wants to project something onto it, there's nothing that supports the courts taking the gay marriage issue out of the hands of the individual states. But you choose to keep dancing around that issue by bringing up religion.



Guys like Hitchens and Dawkins are as phony as they come. What kind of true "atheist" spends their whole life fighting against something they claim to believe doesn't even exist? Their actions undermine their professed non-belief. And, ironically enough, these so called atheists are often more intolerant and quick to push their non-belief than most religious people do their faith. In any event, like I said, Hitchens is singing a different tune now. As will Dawkins when he passes on.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. - Psalms 14:1

What's the worst than can happen? Organization recognized by the state as a church loses tax status?

To give you just one example, we've seen cases where Christian wedding photographers have been sued by a gay couple for not taking their business since it was obviously against their personal beliefs. Of course, these gay couples had plenty of choices of photographers who would take their business but it really wasn't about that, was it? No, it's about forcing their agenda on everyone else and to hell with their beliefs or their freedom. Ironic, to say the least.

Another example, the Catholic Church had to stop it's involvement in adoptions because it wouldn't adopt children out to gay couples.

I could go on. Needless to say, there will no doubt continue to be other examples as so called "gay rights," which are not Constitutional, trample over people's religious rights - which are Constitutionally protected.

Money talks, Ivy.


Well within the right of ANY religious body to adhere to whatever their rules are and suffer whatever legal or financial repercussion comes with it. The thing is, there are quite a few financial benefits to churches here. Gay lobby is not made up of idiots (the opposite actually) and they are just playing a game of chicken with certain religious groups and see if they buckle once money gets involved. Most groups surely will,eventually.

I'd be interested in the tactics that gay lobby is using in countries where religious organizations don't enjoy tax exemptions.

Gays are using the laws on the books in the United States Code,and the Amendments that ironically were either used or created when non Protestant groups were fighting against discrimination against the religious mainstream of America.

Constitution is the framework for the country but the nuts and bolts of the law are the U.S.C. and the Amendments to the Constitution.

Indiana governor signs Religious Freedom Restoration Act


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fQ5U6M6BlU

When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong-part 33

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/2015/03/29/adam-smith-chick-fil-a-video-memoir/70629290/

NEWSER) – Things haven't gone too well for the former CFO who criticized Chick-fil-A in a video he posted on YouTube.

Unable to find lasting work, 37-year-old Adam Smith is living on food stamps with his wife and four kids in the RV they call home, he tells ABC News. "I think people are scared," Smith says of potential employers. "I think people are scared that it could happen again."

Back in the summer of 2012, as thousands of people were opposing Chick-fil-A's stance on gays, Smith rolled into a Chick-fil-A drive-thru for a free glass of water and slammed the female attendant: "Chick-fil-A is a hateful corporation," Smith told her as the filmed the exchange. "I don't know how you live with yourself and work here. I don't understand it."

Smith posted the video before returning to work at Vante, a Tucson-based medical manufacturer — and the proverbial you-know-what had hit the fan by the time he got there.

The receptionist told him "the voicemail is completely full, and it's full of bomb threats," he says. Fired that day, Smith lost his $200,000 salary and more than $1 million in stock options. He and his family moved to Portland, where he got a CFO job, but lost it two weeks later when they realized who he was.

He says he has since been honest in interviews, but companies have been too wary of fallout to hire him. "I don't regret the stand I took, but I regret… the way I talked to her," an emotional Smith says of the worker.

The interview coincides with his recent digital release of a memoir, A Million Dollar Cup of Water (a paperback version is out April 21), which chronicles his professional collapse and years of soul-searching. It's not faring so well on Amazon, which Smith addressed on the site on Friday. "Regarding the many 1-star ratings my book has received today and yesterday, I would like to note that I have only sold 17 digital copies thus far, yet there are 23 1-star ratings on my book. This fascinates me! LOL!

Hard to feel sympathy for such a jackass. And he lost his job by being on the wrong side of the argument too. What a pathetic story.

I saw the video that got him canned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFdPBtxzT6k

He's a fool. Berating a CASHIER of restaurant chain because you disagree with the comments/views of the CEO is pointless. He was grandstanding and being a bully. F him.
I wonder where all the people that he was trying to endear himself to are, now that he's down and out.

*When Keeping It Real Goes Wrong was a series of sketches from the Chappelle show...this story is just a real life version of one of those skits.

Even though I don't agree with him I feel bad for this guy. I really don't think people should lose their livelihood for a lapse in judgment. People deserve a second chance.