I don't kno if I did the quote correctly but the above Is kind of what I am saying. I feel like yes you can/could be made without murder but especially until fairly recently I think it would be really hard to be boss. With a family of over 100 stone gangsters and probly 50 killers I just can't see just anyone commanding these individual's respect. Now I do understand in this day and age the situation is different.

How has no one said paul castellano? Even if it isnt true hed be the closet next to front boss ralph natale

I don't think that Gerry Angiulo ever was the triggerman in a hit based on what I've read and he was the most respected NE boss after Patriarca Sr. I'm pretty sure that he traveled down to Providence to pay tribute to Patriarca and get his blessing to operate in Boston. And over time, he inherited the top seat.

Joey Merlino sure as hell tried to kill a few people, Scarfo Jr. as mentioned earlier and I thought he was also part of the crew that left Joey Chang in the condition he is today (I could be wrong). I would tend to think that he has murdered someone.

Ralph Natale may have been a joker but he personally shot to death at least two people.

Before or during boss?

Obviously before, as I said "personally shot people to death" not too many bosses are running around shooting at people. When he was "boss" they also killed quite a few people but not blowing them away himself personally

Then again he wasnt the true boss...then theres castellano the most powerful mafioso in the country from 76-85

People think Paul didn't earn his promotions, and maybe he didn't, but it might be a mistake to imagine that he was just a gopher hiding in the shadows before becoming boss. Reason I say that is because of the era in which Big Paul was made. Back in the time he was straightened out, demonstrating the ability to whack someone was probably more important. It didn't matter if you looked like a coward. If you were ordered to knock someone off, you had to knockem off. Maybe obedience was more important a virtue to possess in the old days then sheer courage and toughness.

People get really off the wall when it comes to Big Paul. First of all, before he got into white collar crimes, he organized and oversaw the typical Mob activities, including gambling, loan-sharking, highjackings and extortion. Those are the blue collar stuff in which a guy overseeing it, has gotten his hands dirty time and time again. I think it's pretty far-fetched to have this belief that Paul Castellano never pulled a trigger in his day, especially in the life he lived. He didn't become the white-collar, business-man type of mobster until later on in his life after he had risen through the ranks considerably, much like Frank Costello. People always denigrate Castellano, as if he was this terrible boss and didn't know how to run his family because he'd rather sit in an office than be in the streets, as a boss. But at the same time in many instances, praise Costello for being the same way, Costello too was a tough guy according to many sources, but he saw the bigger picture, like Castellano and like Luciano before the both of them. You get farther in life with a suitcase and perhaps a gun, than you would with just the gun. The thing is when you have guys coming up under you, and they can't do some of the things you're capable of business wise, they're going to be intimidated and are always going to feel like you're taking extra pieces of the pie. And each Luciano, Costello & Castellano just lost sight of what they truly were, gangsters. They began to believe the hype that they were aristocrats and in some ways, better than the other criminals under them. That was their only fault.

But again, Castellano organized and oversaw the typical, blue-collar mob rackets that people referred to as being "the dirty work", he also knew killers, he had to by keeping Gilotti close to him and recruiting Roy DeMeo, and being able to sit down with the likes of Jimmy Coonan and Mickey Featherstone. If he knew killers, I don't doubt he was one back in his day before he became consigliere and boss.

But I don't think there are many bosses who never personally committed a murder. And committing a murder was never really in the qualifications list of being a made guy, I mean it was, but you could also get a pass and your button if you were simply involved in a hit, and contributed in some way other than pulling the trigger. Just look at Al D'Arco.

That's a very good point. But there have been made guys who didn't even take part in the planning of a hit. There's a youngish guy in New York right now who is absolutely revered by some people on these boards for being "old school," with "ties to Sicily," and yada yada yada. And I know for an absolute fact that he never even drove a crash car on a hit. And that's not a criticism because this is actually one of the street guys who I respect, and they're few and far between these days.

Now granted, things are different today. If you do the simple math, you'll find that there just haven't been enough hits in recent years to justify making every guy who got his button since the '90s (and that's factoring in five or so guys involved in each hit, which is stretching things a bit). But even in the old days, there were more than a handful of big money guys who got made for their earning potential and nothing more.

Are we talking about Frank Cali? Lol...And yeah, the numbers don't add up, especially if we're talking about modern times, I too doubt many of the guys made since the 90's "made their bones". There just hasn't been enough murders reported to support that, granted the body count isn't the end all be all way to be able to determine these things but it's a factor. And I personally don't see too many guys, mafiosi or just regular criminals, being well versed in making a body disappear on a normal basis. Because that's what would have to be happening if guys were still "making bones" to get their button. I'm sure some guys have still, but I think today, it's more about being earner.

Also if a guy is a huge money maker and is bringing in money like what Francese was pulling in with the gas scam the bosses would never risk losing or making a guy unhappy.A lot of these guys i would say at least 90% dont actually want to kill anyone they just want to make money and enjoy their lives i dont think there are a lot of John pappas and roy demeos out there who just cant wait to whack someone

Any stories or are we just taking your word Ralph?