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Re: Joe Masseria's Caporegimes
[Re: Benny3Balls]
#807790
10/10/14 07:06 PM
10/10/14 07:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,442
Alfa Romeo
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no, tried clicking on the real thing. box oo1 pp 1-810 [ 1 of 14 folders ] nothing comes up am I on the right page?
Binnie, thats what i get too. Is there a link to the actual files/material? I think you guys are seeing right then. You should see a screen that lists the contents. The contents might be available for research, but not by a click on the internet. But I think this shows one thing: The government and/or Maas did not burn Joe Valachi's affidavit. It's there. Those are the real Valachi Papers. Just in case the link is malfunctioning, here is a cut and paste.... "The John F. Kennedy Library Columbia Point Boston, MA 02125 617-514-1629 www.jfklibrary.orgAdministrative Information Collection Overview List of Series Container List Administrative Information Abstract Papers 1964. Organized crime figure. Handwritten and typewritten manuscript of The Real Thing, which served as source material for The Valachi Papers (1968) by Peter Maas. Access Open. Usage Guidelines Some of the archival materials in this collection may be subject to copyright or other intellectual property restrictions. Users of these materials are advised to determine the copyright status of any document from which they wish to publish. The copyright law of the United States..." and "Container List /expand/collapse Expand/Collapse All Series 1. The Real Thing: The Expose and Inside Doings of Cosa Nostra. Extent: 2189 pages. Arrangement: by type of material. These papers document the life of Joseph Valachi from 1920 to 1964. They mainly consist of a manuscript which describes the beginnings of Valachi's life of crime and his experiences as a member of Cosa Nostra, commonly known as the Mafia. The manuscript details the inner workings of this organized crime group and the activities of many members of the New York unit of Cosa Nostra. The manuscript is unedited and is written as one would speak. For a more concise, easier to read version of Valachi's story, see The Valachi Papers, by Peter Maas, G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1968. Box 001 Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [1 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [2 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [3 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [4 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [5 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [6 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [7 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [8 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [9 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [10 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [11 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [12 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [13 of 14 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 1-810 [14 of 14 folders] Box 002 Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 811-1180 [1 of 6 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 811-1180 [2 of 6 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 811-1180 [3 of 6 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 811-1180 [4 of 6 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 811-1180 [5 of 6 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier The Real Thing: Pages 811-1180 [6 of 6 folders] Display/Hide Digital Identifier Correspondence: Peter Maas & Joseph Valachi" So that's TWO BOXES of material. There's the 1,180 pages right there.
"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
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Re: Joe Masseria's Caporegimes
[Re: Binnie_Coll]
#807791
10/10/14 07:10 PM
10/10/14 07:10 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,442
Alfa Romeo
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benny3balls alfa romeo is looking. this thing wont open for me either. love to see it. do you hear Johnson stopped the publication of over 1100 pps. He might have stopped publication, but the access on the folders I linked here lists them as OPEN. Therefore someone could read them. You just have to go through the procedures to get it, but you could. Living in Boston MA might help also. One thing is certain. You won't be reading the real Valachi Papers with a click of your mouse. I just wanted everyone to see that they (the papers) exist, somewhere, and that they are publicly accessible....in some way.
"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
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Re: Joe Masseria's Caporegimes
[Re: Philip_Lombardo]
#808417
10/15/14 01:40 AM
10/15/14 01:40 AM
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 102
SonnyD
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Posts: 102
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If anyone is interested, they're in the process of putting up Valachi's original manuscript online on http://www.onewal.com/Just click on articles-menu and scroll down to the 4th one.
Last edited by SonnyD; 10/15/14 01:42 AM.
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Re: Joe Masseria's Caporegimes
[Re: SonnyD]
#808506
10/15/14 04:10 PM
10/15/14 04:10 PM
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 852
Fleming_Ave
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If anyone is interested, they're in the process of putting up Valachi's original manuscript online on http://www.onewal.com/Just click on articles-menu and scroll down to the 4th one. Thanks, Sonny, that's some interesting stuff right there.
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Re: Joe Masseria's Caporegimes
[Re: Faithful1]
#808580
10/16/14 09:44 AM
10/16/14 09:44 AM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,442
Alfa Romeo
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The whole thing has been released and is open to anyone. The problem is that it's over 1000 pages long and that's a lot of money to spend at the photocopy machine. Copying at the National Archives isn't cheap. I copied maybe 300 or so of the most important pages because it was just getting too expensive. Then leave the end off? Why omit what's in the middle? Something is wrong there.
"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
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Re: Joe Masseria's Caporegimes
[Re: dominic_calabrese]
#808713
10/16/14 09:27 PM
10/16/14 09:27 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,442
Alfa Romeo
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in any case, for the larger purpose of this thread, I think it is safe to say that Tommy Gagliano and Gaetano Gagliano are one and the same person! I know this opinion is not agreed with by many if not most, but I am going to have to say that Gaetano Gagliano probably did relinquish the boss' seat to Tommy Lucchese in 1953 and died shortly thereafter. The reason I say this is because I am reading Bill Bonanno and again he said it twice that Gagliano stepped down in 53. Unlike us, he knew was Gagliano looked like. He said he called him "Uncle Tom". Anastasia was "Uncle Albert", and so on. Bill Bonanno was married in 1957, therefore it follows that he was probably mature enough and clear headed enough to not only remember who Gagliano was, but also when specific Commission meetings occurred, and who was present. The only way he could have gotten the date wrong for the moment Gagliano stepped down is if he thought a Commission meeting that occurred in 1951 actually occurred in 1953. Now remember, each Commission meeting was supposed to be spaced 5 years apart unless it was an extraordinary session. The first was 1931, then 1936, then 1941, then 1946, then 1951. Bill records a meeting in 1951, as well as the minutes. But then he says there was another distinct meeting in 1953 that he called an "extraordinary" meeting. It was there and then that Bonanno says Gagliano resigned. I'm sorry, but I do not buy that that Tommasso Gagliano was Tommy Lucchese's old boss.
"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
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Re: Joe Masseria's Caporegimes
[Re: Binnie_Coll]
#808719
10/16/14 09:43 PM
10/16/14 09:43 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,841 OC, CA
Faithful1
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Posts: 1,841
OC, CA
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ok, was there anything in those pages at the archives that you felt should have been in the book. or, were their any revelations concerning the cosa nostra that were not in the book. I guess I should say was it worth your while to go over the pages, and will what you read contribute to your research. Yes, there's some interesting things in Valachi's manuscript. I don't recall if I used much of it. Dave Critchley used some for what he wrote about Buster from Chicago. There's a few more details in the manuscript than what was found in the Maas book. Alex Hortis may have used some things for his book too. Modern researchers can make more sense of the extra details in the manuscript than writers from the 1960s because we have learned so much since then. A few things that I remember that were interesting was that when he was a kid he lived on 108th Street in East Harlem. In 1912 a lady named Pasquarella Spinelli was killed in her stable (you can read about the infamous Murder Stable online); he went over there and spat on her dead body because once she kicked him out when he tried to sleep there. Later on he talked about a top guy to Ciro Terranova named Big Dick Amato (in the 1920s I don't think there was a sexual meaning to his name) who was killed in 1930, and he had some run-ins with him. There's a few more details about Buster from Chicago. Toward the end of the book he goes on a rant why bosses like Vito Genovese are unfair to soldiers like Joe Valachi. Since you haven't read the manuscript I can tell you that it's not an easy read. A single paragraph can go on for several pages. So can a single sentence. Valachi did some crazy page numbering, like he could go from pages 1 to 10, then go page 10a, 10b, 10c and so on before going to page 11.
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Re: Joe Masseria's Caporegimes
[Re: Giacomo_Vacari]
#808723
10/16/14 10:04 PM
10/16/14 10:04 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,442
Alfa Romeo
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Bill Bonanno got the dates wrong, Gagliano stepped down in 51' and died in 53'. Some sources say that he was semi retired after 1946 and let Lucchese run things before he retired. Tommy Lucchese supposedly testified that Gagliano died in 51, not 53. Bill Bonanno said that the 53 extraordinary Commission meeting was called by Gagliano himself to name Tommy Lucchese and step down. That is very specific.
"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
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Re: Joe Masseria's Caporegimes
[Re: Alfa Romeo]
#808726
10/16/14 11:02 PM
10/16/14 11:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,418 Secret location (WITSEC)
HairyKnuckles
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Underboss
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"Now remember, each Commission meeting was supposed to be spaced 5 years apart unless it was an extraordinary session. The first was 1931, then 1936, then 1941, then 1946, then 1951. Bill records a meeting in 1951, as well as the minutes. But then he says there was another distinct meeting in 1953 that he called an "extraordinary" meeting. It was there and then that Bonanno says Gagliano resigned."
When the Commission was created in 1931, it was decided that they have to meet every five years so the chairs could be ratified for the next five year period. In between, the Commission met every time there was a cause for them to meet.
I´ll say this again, Gagliano´s first name was Tommaso, not Gaetano. He died in Feb of 1951. Bill Bonanno got the year wrong when he said 1953 in his book. Camarel posted in this same thread I believe, photos of his tombstone. I have posted his obituary found in NY Times dated Feb 16th, 1951 (in another thread). I don´t understand the confusion about Tommaso Gagliano´s name and death. It´s like trying to explain what the capital of Canada is to someone who thinks it´s Toronto.
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Re: Joe Masseria's Caporegimes
[Re: Faithful1]
#808747
10/17/14 05:05 AM
10/17/14 05:05 AM
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Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 102
SonnyD
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Since you haven't read the manuscript I can tell you that it's not an easy read. A single paragraph can go on for several pages. So can a single sentence. Valachi did some crazy page numbering, like he could go from pages 1 to 10, then go page 10a, 10b, 10c and so on before going to page 11.
Having read the stuff you put up online, I think it's fair to say Valachi was a world class rambler! And I don't mean he liked to walk! Not really surprising that Peter Maas cut a lot of it out of the book to make it read better. No conspiracy, just good book editing. Just to get back to the opening post, I would say Charlie Luciano, Ciro Terranova, Tony Bender, Joseph Pinzola, Sam Pollaccia, Rocco Pellegrino and Gaetano Ricci are good contenders for Masseria capo's, with Frankie Yale a possible(although I tend to think not) but certainly Little Augie Pisano after Yale and Frankie Marlow's death.
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Re: Joe Masseria's Caporegimes
[Re: Philip_Lombardo]
#808799
10/17/14 10:11 AM
10/17/14 10:11 AM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,442
Alfa Romeo
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Having read the stuff you put up online, I think it's fair to say Valachi was a world class rambler! And I don't mean he liked to walk! Not really surprising that Peter Maas cut a lot of it out of the book to make it read better. No conspiracy, just good book editing. I don't think that's the only point. The point is that if you are doing a public service, you do it in its entirety. To tell the public what is or is not useful information for their consumption, from a document meant to be an expose, is unacceptable and a failure. Peter Maas was forbidden by some nazi thought police from publishing the entirety of Valachi's rambling. No doubt to protect someone on the law enforcement side of the corruption equation. What is the excuse now? Some of the gaps occur at very interesting parts of Valachi's story. Here is a good example... "First they told me that Joe the Boss Masseria had sentenced them all to death because they were Castellamarise. Now I will try to explain just what this meant. It is a certain small country in Italy and as everyone knows that there are all difference dialects in the Italian language, in other words, I will tell the difference between the Sicilian and myself. I am from Naples that is my people were, and I don't understand the Sicilian language as I do my own. They didn't tell me why they were sentenced to death but they tell me that the little that they were they......" Then the rest is omitted. That's crazy. I think at a minimum, certain parts are being omitted because people are writing books based on them.
"For us, rubbin'out a Mustache was just like makin' way for a new building, like we was in the construction business."
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