Go over to the RD forum and do a search for the time he claimed the Outfit still has the city of Chicago in an "iron grip."

You're a member there, I'm not. You have to be a member there in order to view threads, correct?

Copy & paste his words & post them here in this very thread.

I'm not a member there anymore. But he said that very thing. When he went by the name Fratto89.

That's your beef with him? I dont think the statement is true, but that not THAT big of a deal.

.....

Not entirely. But it goes to our original disagreement which was about the current status of the Chicago mob. And that would have been fine if it had only gone that far. I have the same disagreement with others on that issue. What made him different is the level to which he stooped in terms of personal attacks. It became an obsession for him (still is) and he actually got banned from the other forum because he couldn't let it go.

But as far as the original point goes, even if he does know people in Chicago, and those photos were taken by his own hand, it doesn't change the fact his opinions on the current status of the Outfit conflict with what the feds and over all evidence says.

......so basically what you're saying is that you still cannot present any concrete proof of him making that statement. Nor can you provide anything that would suggest he's got outlandish opinions on the outfit's current status.

So I was correct after all. This is about the way he talks down to you & nothing more.

You just described yourself. Obession, Banned from RD, can't let things go...yep thats about right...

I was going to say, I thought I recalled IL also being banned at RD. And I do find it interesting your contributions to these threads generally tend to be "Outfit police"....usually only end up arguing with people about its size. Don't care enough to start an argument, buuuuuuut you're not totally innocent yourself.

Let me give u the scoop on what happend to "wiseguy aka Ivy League " over on the rd

There was a thread about Detroit and they're viability where he refused to listen to indictments or facts or the FBI and just because some moron from the department of justice wrote an article which didn't include Detroit in his active families , that means they're dead
People quoted current FBI agents who are much more credible than a juvenile probation officer from Utah and he refuses to listen because indictments= activity
According to this theory frank toots Caruso retired from the mob in the early 80s and Michael lancelotti has never been a member of the mob.
He then lashed out at everyone due to his ego and the fact that I fucked his boss shelisa and made him beg for his job back because according to her , "officers of the law should not be obsessed with organized criminals"

I have given example after example after example, to the pointb where to deny the fact that the FBI engages in systematic misinformation is undeniable even through the use of basic logic.

Just a few examples

They had a witness in family secrets who gave the names under oath of 60 made outfit guys, and at the same time, claimed there were only 28. In other words, they contradicted their own witness testamony

They declared rockford "extinctt"
Then named a boss and a leadership
When the boss died, they declared it extinct again
They then gave the name of the new boss of the extinct family.
Then when that boss of the extinct family died, they declared he Was not the boss of Rockford after all, but an outfit associate
Again they declared Rockford extict
weeks later...(wait for it)...the named yet another new boss

At the same time in the 1970s, they had John Trenalone listed BOTH in seperate documents as a soldier in the Buffalo family and the Boss of the Cleveland family

The list goes on and on

We now have a situation where on the same thread, some are claiming the Outfit "has nothing going on" in the wake of a conviction in an Outfit operation...it is a bit ridculous

Interesting lol

If Ivy League wants to continue to play Mr. Google and the Fibs are the sole source of knowledge so be it. Anyone with a clue knows that's a pile of shit.

OTOH ridiculous claims about the current strength of the Outfit are just as big of a joke. Like the Arm just moved in and ingratiated himself to them in both Chicago and Rockford. Please....

I have lived here my whole life and know many connected people and probably some that are made.

I wouldn't even ask them how many members there are, or if they're made. I did ask within the past decade if they were still "making" people and the answer was positive.

So the FBI has no clue as usual with the Outfit. They knew about 28 members and those are now probably 20 due to attrition and jail. Other than that, keep guessing.

If I was still a member of the RD forum, I could find it and post it. Anyone familiar with his posts shouldn't be surprised that he said it. I know he said it and he knows he said it.

But you're right, the real problem is that he turned a simple disagreement about the Outfit into a personal vendetta against me and has never been able to let it go. Naturally I'm going to have a problem with that because he is always taking personal pot shots and it gets old. There's a reason why he got banned from the RD forum and is current suspended from this one. You just like the guy because he feeds you the line you want to hear about the Outfit.



I'd be happy if there was never another argument about the state of the modern Outfit. I'd be happy if I never had to respond to one of Fratto's (ChiTown) posts again. He's the guy who has kept this personal beef going. Not me.



There are so many outright lies and revisionist history in this post I don't know where to begin. Going back years on the other forum, there was example after example of times you disagreed and argued with the FBI. It's just the few times that one fed here or there will say something you like and all of the sudden they have credibility in your eyes.

Everyone on these boards knows there's nobody who gives the feds more credence than myself. But I also look at all of the evidence. And the evidence regarding Detroit doesn't support what mcscott has long claimed or what you want to believe about it. It just doesn't, no matter how much you wish otherwise.

We both know I never "lashed out" at anyone. I don't need to because I do my research and have the facts on my side. I have no idea what you're babbling about when it comes to my boss (who the hell is Shelisha?), etc.

Seriously, louie, your post just shows what a liar you are. Of course, you'll probably just backpedal and claim you were joking. You live in Florida. I live in Utah. There's nobody I know that you know.



The FBI is going to have a better idea about the Outfit's membership than anyone else, including people on these forums. Anyone who can't see that fact is delusional or just lying.

LOL and there we have it. Priceless stuff.

The FBI is going to have a better idea about the Outfit's membership than anyone else, including people on these forums. Anyone who can't see that fact is delusional or just lying.

As I stated, and I'm not naming names I grew up with many of the kids of the people you read about. I don't ask, and you know what I chose a different life although that was available.

Clowns like you are a joke. You know nothing. Maybe google will eventually get a street version. You know one that isn't a picture.

Hell I had a friend try to open an OTB (and did) with a nightclub a couple years ago. He didn't think anyone would pay him a visit. I laughed and told him the price.

You want to enlighten us on what the street tax the Outfit charges on an OTB in IL knucklehead?

Try that on google....

This has been explained several times over. There was a small snippet in one of the Chicago papers about Calabrese identifying some 60 members of the Outfit. Not long after, the we had a few different FBI officials in Chicago cite 25, 28, and 30 made members remaining. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that those 60 members Calabrese identified were past and present. And that's assuming the reporter who originally wrote about the 60 "members" wasn't just using that term generically like many do. So, no, this is not an example of the FBI lying or changing it's story. Sorry.



God only knows what the heck you are talking about. Rockford hasn't been recognized by the feds as a viable family since the late 1980's. All we have is the Calabrese affidavit that refers to the late Frank Saladino as the boss of the Rockford LCN. But that in no way means there is still a family there. As I have already explained before, the feds had also given that title to guys like D'Elia (despite there being no Bufalino family left), LoScalzo (depite there being no Tampa family left), Smaldone (despite there being no Denver family left), Milano (despite there being no LA family left), and so on. The feds never changed their tune about Rockford. It's been defunct as a family for years and there has only been one relatively small gambling bust out of there going back more than a decade. Nobody is "opening the books" there so you can end the charade.

See what I mean? You naturally gravitate to the bullshit.



Who asked you to name names? I didn't. I don't know what your problem is. All I'm saying is the FBI is going to know more about a mob family that anyone posting on these forums. I don't care where certain people grew up or who they know. Even they are dependent on the feds (and Google) for most of their info. There's just no way they can know that many people and cover that much ground to not need the same sources as the rest of us. Pretending like they don't need these sources is one of the surest signs of a fraud.

the same fbi affadivit that mentioned calabrese naming 60 names?

the one you claimed to never have seen

Right, the FBI, which we have already established lies and presents misinformation by it's own admission, does not recognize a "Rockford family"...yet they continued to name new bosses as recently as 2011,(Thanks for proving my point) except for the one that they first said was a rockford boss, and then claimed was an outfit associate...in case you are confused, it cant be both
Rockford has indeed opened it's books and is making a killing in the semi legit real estate and construction rackets, you wouldntb know this becuse "you never question the feds"...you know, the same feds who openly admitt their public media is full of misinformation...lol
Like all of us keep trying to tell you, you will never get an accurate picture of LCN by reading bogus FBI public bullitins

The FBI contradicted their own sworn wittness...what more does anyone need to see to realize their public mediais intentionally deceptive?

Here's the report right here, cook. Where in it is there any mention of 60 current made members?

All we have is on page 3 where it reads "Nicholas Calabrese will also testify about and identify persons who are current made members of the Chicago LCN. Nicholas Calabrese will also testify about the structure of the Chicago LCN and the chain of command for the Chicago LCN from the late 1960's through the present."

http://dig.abclocal.go.com/wls/documents/threat%20assessment.pdf

In other words, he covered the Outfit's membership both past and present.



That 60 figure comes from Chicago Sun-Times reporter Steven Warmbir, who was covering the Family Secrets trial. Part of what he said in the link below reads:

In addition to the 14 murders, Calabrese confessed to, he told prosecutors about:
--22 other additional mob murders he knew about
--4 attempted murders
--5 bombings
--2 extortions
--60 names of made men in the Outfit

http://blogs.suntimes.com/mob/2009/03/what_the_prosecution_says_abou.html

Again, he's obviously covering things past and present. And considering we had the FBI in Chicago cite 25-30 members, there's no reason to assume Calabrese was talking about 60 current made guys.

This all makes sense if people will take the blinders off and go with the available facts rather than wishful thinking.

I never said anything about the outfit haveing great strngth or numbers, I only said that the 28 made guy reference is nonsense, and that the outfit is till very much alive.
I have not moved in and integrated myself with anyone, I have known Outfit and Rockford people since I was a teenager living in NY through both nucleur and extended family. A made father and two made Uncles will get you that kind of access.

In other words, the feds contradicted their own sworn witness, exactly what we are trying to explain to you. What part of this simple concept do you not understand?

Wiat..past and present? Is Ivyleague claiming the MOST made guy the outfit ever has was 60?
Huh?
LOL

I'll say it once more. Them identifying Saladino as the boss of the LCN in Rockford doesn't necessarily mean there is still a formally structured, viable family there. You are simply making that assumption so you can go on with your lies about it still being around to make new members.

And it was certainly possible for Saladino to be both. Most of the crimes he was charged with as a member of the Outfit's 26th Street crew took place years prior to the Family Secrets indictment. At one point he took over things in Rockford or was made into any family there (if he ever was) isn't clear.

Your last two posts are a good example of how you twist what the FBI says in order to make them out to be liars.

It's very clear what the feds said and how they haven't contradicted themselves.

Give it up, Arm. Seriously, who here actually believes your claims about your history in Rochester, the books being opened up in Rockford, or anything else? Who? Cook, maybe.

Perhaps going back to the original subject of the thread might help
Mandel tried to bring the entire Chicago and midwesten adult industry/human trafficing and prostitution under the thumb of Cicero.Elmwood and Melrose park, not to metion some 28 properties worth 7 figures. A pretty ambitions project for a dying family with 28 memebers, don't you think?

Didnt the FEDS also say William D'elia was the boss of the Bufalino family after they were defunct?

You have no way of knowing the FBI's numbers are nonsense. You're just another "Mob Forrest Gump" who pretends to know people in several cities and is here on the internet to give us all the real scoop. Not only are you full of crap, you're entirely unoriginal. Others have played this very same game on these boards long before.