This is the full transcript of Vincent "Fish" Cafaro's testimony taken from the 1988 Senate subcommittee investigation on organized crime. Lots of interesting stuff here concerning the Genovese family in the early to mid 80's. Sorry for the format, it was taken from an OCR version of a PDF.
TESTIMONY OF VINCENT CAFARO, NEW YORK, NY, ACCOMPA-
NIED BY DAVID T. EAMES, OF BODIAN & EAMES, NEW YORK,
NY
Senator NUNN. First of all, as I understand it, Mr. Cafaro, you
currently remain under Federal indictment on various criminal
charges in the Southern District of New York. Is that correct?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN. Given the fact of that indictment, I want to
advise you of your rights as a witness before this Subcommittee,
and if there are any questions, you and your attorney certainly can
confer, and you can certainly pose those questions to us.
First, you have the right not to provide any testimony which
may tend to incriminate you. Do you understand that right?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN. Do you understand that if you do testify here this
morning anything you say here may be used against you in other
legal proceedings?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN. Second, you have the right to consult with an at-
torney before answering any question or questions before the Sub-
committee. Any questions we may pose this morning, you have the
right to confer with your attorney before answering that question.
Do you understand that right?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN. In that regard, I would certainly suggest to both
of you that if you do want to confer, and if the attorney feels a
need to confer, he is welcome to do that, and we will give you time
for that before we require an answer.
Mr. Cafaro, the Subcommittee looks forward to your testimony
this morning. I know you have previously provided the Subcommit-
tee with a signed, sworn, rather detailed affidavit, which we will
not hear in total this morning, but we will make it a part of the
record.1
Is that correct, that you have given us an affidavit?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN. I understand that you have a shorter prepared
statement, and we will be delighted to have you present that state-
ment at this time. Once you complete that statement we will have
questions for you. Again, we appreciate your being here this morn-
ing, and after Senator Roth, our ranking member, gives his open-
ing statement, we will turn it over to you. Senator Roth.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ROTH
Senator ROTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is fitting that we
conclude these hearings on traditional organized crime by focusing
on the organized crime capital of this country, New York.
Not only is New York important because it is the home of the
most powerful LCN families in this country, but it is also the head-
quarters for many of our Nation's most important industries.
By exerting undue influence on industry through its control of
ancillary businesses and labor unions, organized crime can use its
base in New York to wield immense economic power throughout
the country.
As we will hear this morning from a former member of one of
the New York LCN families, the primary means by which orga-
nized crime obtains control over legitimate business is through its
control of labor unions, and that is the real power behind the LCN
in New York.
Organized crime's control of organized labor results in organized
extortion. Kickbacks can become just one of the costs of doing busi-
ness. Of course, most labor unions in New York and elsewhere are
not involved with, or under the influence of, organized crime. But
in these hearings we are necessarily concerned with those few that
are.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to take this opportunity to commend
you, and Chief Counsel Eleanore Hill, as well as your staff, for fo-
cusing the attention of this Subcommittee and the American people
on the problem of organized crime.
Under your direction PSI has continued to carry out its impor-
tant mandate to investigate and eliminate organized crime. Per-
haps in 25 years, hearings such as these will be unnecessary, and
the only evidence of the LCN will be in crime novels and old
movies.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator NUNN. Thank you very much, Senator Roth.
Let me just add a word. We are going to hear a good bit about
some industries, and some labor unions this morning, and as Sena-
tor Roth has just stated, when organized crime does control either
organized labor unions, or segments of industry, it is indeed very
serious.
I think we need to put it in a broader perspective, however,
before we begin. We have had testimony over and over again before
this Subcommittee, over the years, that in some cities, and perhaps
New York is one of those in which control by organized crime of
labor is disproportionate perhaps, but, overall, most labor unions,
most labor leaders are honorable, law-abiding citizens.
We are going to hear some exceptions this morning in that con-
text, and I hope we do put it in that context. I think the same
thing can be said about business in this country. We are going to
hear about corrupt businesses this morning, but that does not
mean that all businesses in America or in New York City, or any-
where, are corrupt.
So I think we have to put it in context, and where it happens we
have to be very concerned about it, but it is important to keep our
perspective.
Mr. Cafaro, we are delighted to have you this morning. We are
pleased that you are cooperating and we welcome your testimony,
so why don't you proceed.
Mr. CAFARO. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the
subcommittee. My name is Vincent Cafaro, known to my friends as
the "Fish".
Thirty-six years ago, when I was 17 years old, a kid in New York
City, I got "pinched' or busted for possession of 2 ounces of "junk,"
meaning narcotics.
Senator NUNN. Mr. Cafaro, if you want to pull that mike down a
little bit, I think it might be easier. Just take your time now. We
have got plenty of time. You have got all the time you need. Just
take your time as you present your statement.
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, sir. My grandparents went to "Fat Tony" Sa-
lerno, at the time a soldier in the Genovese family or "brugad," for
help. Fat Tony took me aside and gave me some advice: leave the
junk alone; if you need money, go out and steal.
Six or 7 years later, around 1958, Fat Tony came to me and
asked me if I wanted to work for him in a numbers office. I said
yes, and stayed with Fat Tony for the next 25 years. In the end,
Fat Tony had become, in many ways, like a father to me.
In 1986, the Federal Government charged Tony, myself, and 14
others, amico nostra, for, among other things, racketeering, extor-
tion and conspiracy.
Tony and the others are now awaiting a jury verdict on those
charges in New York City. Shortly after the indictment was re-
turned, I began cooperating with the FBI and the U.S. attorney's
office.
I agreed to and did wear a wire for the FBI for 5 months in New
York City. In October 1987, for a number of reasons, including con-
cern for my family, I informed the prosecutor's office that I no
longer wished to cooperate, and was placed in custody to await
trial.
I am providing this statement independently of any agreement
with the U.S. attorney's office. My case and all the charges against
me remain pending. I have not been given any immunity by the
Federal Government or by this subcommittee.
In 1974 I got "straightened out." In other words, I became a
"made" member of the Genovese family or the "brugad," a true
amico nostra. This is not something that you ask for. It is some-
thing that you are offered by the family, if they feel you are
worthy.
Our family or our "brugad" has approximately 400 members,
with a definite hierarchy: a boss, an underboss, and a consigliere,
followed by 14 caporegimes. Each caporegime has a crew of at least
eight.
The boss of the Genovese family is Vincent Gigante, also known
as "Chin." Bobby Manna—Louis Manna—is the consigliere. Until
his death in April 1987, Sammy Santera was the underboss of our
brugad.
Beginning in the early 1980's, Fat Tony Salerno was generally
recognized on the streets as the boss of the Genovese family. In fact
for years Fat Tony reported back to Phillip Lombardo, also known
as Ben or Benny Squint.
In the 1960's, when Vito Genovese went to jail, he had turned
over control of our brugad to Lombardo. Lombardo wanted to stay
in the background and keep the heat off himself. So over the years,
Tommy Ryan, then Eli Zaccardi, then Funzi Tieri, and finally Fat
Tony, fronted as the bosses of the family while Lombardo con-
trolled things from the background.
In 1981, Fat Tony had a stroke and was "pulled down" by Lom-
bardo, Vincent "Chin" Gigante, Manna, and Santora. Lombardo
was also in poor health and retired.
Senator Nunn. Could I stop you right there, what do you mean
by "pulled down"?
Mr. Cafaro. In other words, he was not the boss any more. He
was taken down.
Senator Nunn. It does not mean he was killed, or anything like
that, or hurt, or harmed?
Mr. Cafaro. No, no. He was just taken down. He was not a boss
any longer.
Senator Nunn. Thank you.
Mr. Cafaro. Gigante became the boss behind the scenes with
Santora as the underboss, and Manna as the consigliere.
Gigante also allowed Fat Tony to continue to front as the boss,
letting the other families believe, as recently as 1984, that Fat
Tony still controlled our brugad.
Fat Tony continued to represent the family by sitting on the
commission and in meeting representatives of the other families. In
fact Fat Tony conferred with Chin on any major matters affecting
the family. Chin attended one commission meeting but preferred
that Fat Tony go to these meetings.
I remember the day I became a member of the Genovese family.
Tony Salerno had told me and Patty Jerome to meet him and
Buckaloo one morning. When we arrived, Buckaloo took me to the
El Cortile Restaurant on Mulberry Street, where we met with
Funzi Tieri, the brugad's underboss, and Fat Tony, who at that
time was the consigliere.
I knew what I was there for when I saw a gun, a knife, a pin,
alcohol and tissue laying out on the table. Funzi asked me if I
wanted to become a member of the family. He said I could accept
or not accept, and there would be no hard feelings.
But he also said "once you accept you belong to us. We come
first. Your family and home come second. We come first, no matter
what." And I accepted.
Funzi then showed me the gun and the knife, and says "This is
the gun and the knife, you live with the gun and die by the knife."
He told me that Fat Tony had sponsored me, and gave me a piece
of paper to let burn in my hand while I took the oath. "If I betray
the Cosa Nostra, I shall burn like this paper".
He then pricked my trigger finger with the pin and told me,
"Now you are amico nostra, you have been born over again. Now
you are a man; you belong to us."
From that point on, I was amico nostra, a soldier in the Geno-
vese family, the most powerful mob family or "brugad" in New
York City, and, for that matter, in the United States.
There were certain rules that all amico nostra lived by: no fool-
ing around with another amico nostra's wife; no "junk"; no dealing
with pornography or Government bonds; and never talking about
"this thing' to anyone but another amico nostra.
Senator Roth. Would you explain what you mean by "no junk.**
Mr. Cafaro. It is narcotics.
Senator Roth. Narcotics. Thank you.
Mr. Cafaro. We were a very disciplined organization. A soldier
had to check in at least once a week with his caporegime. A soldier
could not make a "score," meaning any illegal business, without
the approval of his capo. If he wanted to, a caporegime could
demand 10 percent of the profits made by his soldiers on a score. A
soldier could not even carry a gun without first getting approval
from his capo.
Most important, we knew never to ask questions about another
amico nostra's business unless it was also our business.
La Cosa Nostra enforces its rules through murder. So we even
have rules about who could or could not be murdered, or, as we say
on the streets—clipped, whacked or hurt. First of all, killings were
mandatory for certain offenses. Messing around with another
amico nostra's wife or family; dealing in "junk"; "ratting"; refusing
to go on a hit if asked; knowingly killing a cop or other law-en-
forcement agent. Also, if someone you sponsored "ratted", you
would be killed as being responsible for his actions.
No killing or "hit" could take place without the approval of the
hierarchy of your family. The first step in getting that approval
was to take your "beef to your capo, who in turn gets approval for
the hit from the consiglieri and the underboss. Ultimately, no hit
could go down without the approval of the boss.
If the boss okays the hit, the capo assigns it to you to be carried
out. You decide who, if anyone, from your own regime, will help
you do the job.
If the hit is against a member of another family, your boss will
take the beef to the boss of that family. If he agrees, members of
that family will carry out the hit. If he disagrees, and the hit takes
place anyway, a "war" may result.
As for me, I was never asked to carry out a hit. I never had to
kill anyone. This was because Fat Tony always looked out for me.
It was like a father and son relationship. However, I knew that if I
was ever asked, I would have to kill or be killed.
What I did for our family was to run the numbers business in
West Harlem from about 110th Street to 153rd Street. I had about
72 controllers working under me. We had plenty of willing custom-
ers. We paid 6 to 1. The New York lottery only paid 5 to 1. At my
peak I was grossing about $80,000 per day with a net of about
$65,000 before payouts. I had some bad years, but in a good year I
could make as much as $2 million or more. Whatever money I
took, I split 50-50 with Fat Tony. Later I expanded my business
from numbers into sports betting.
My family made a lot of money from gambling and the numbers
rackets. We got our money from gambling but our real power, our
real strength came from the unions. With the unions behind us, we
could shut down the city, or the country for that matter, if we
needed to, to get our way.
Our brugad controlled a number of different unions, some of
which I personally dealt with, some of which I knew about from
other amico nostras. In some cases we got money from our dealings
with the unions, in some cases we got favors such as jobs for
friends and relatives, but more importantly, in all cases we got
power over every businessman in New York.
With the unions behind us, we could make or break the construc-
tion industry, the garment business, the docks, to name but a few.
For example, Bobby Rao—Robert Rao—was a union official with
a local of Hotel Workers and Bartenders Union, Hotel, Restaurant
Employees, AFL-CIO Production, Service and Sales District Coun-
cil.
Bobby and his union belonged to our brugad. Every month,
Bobby would bring over anywhere from a $1,000 to $2,000 for me to
give to Fat Tony, which I would split with Fat Tony.
At Christmas, Bobby would bring over $25,000 for me to give to
Fat Tony. Fat Tony would tell me how to split the money up—half,
or $12,500 to Ben Lombardo who, at the time, was the boss of our
family behind Tony; another $6,500 to Tony Provenzano, or Tony
"Pro," a family member who controlled Teamsteis Local 560; and
the remainder to be split between Fat Tony and myself.
I knew that the money that Bobby Rao delivered was money that
was skimmed from union funds, including union dental and medi-
cal plans. I knew this because Bobby himself told me so.
Although our brugad probably had the greatest amount of union
influence in New York City, the other families also had control of
unions in certain areas and industries.
As a result, some of the most important industries in New York
City, such as the waterfront and shipping industries, construction
and concrete industries, the garment center, and the convention
center operations, were all subject to mob influence and control.
Another major source of our power and income for our brugad
was the mob's control of the concrete industry through what we
called the "2 percent club." Fat Tony and Paul Castellano were
partners with Nicky Auletta in S&A Concrete.
Salerno and Castellano had put up no money, but had provided
Auletta with their control and influence of the construction unions.
Through S&A Concrete, the Genovese and Gambino families also
took over the high-rise construction business of DIG Concrete and
Construction.
Castellano also controlled "Biff" Halloran, the owner of Transit
Mix and Certified Concrete. Castellano could control Halloran and
others like him because Castellano controlled Local 282 of the
Teamsters Union. All of the concrete drivers belonged to that Local
282.
For a while, only Halloran was allowed to deliver concrete to
construction sites in Manhattan. Fat Tony and Castellano used
their influence to insure that contractors bought all of their con-
crete from Halloran. In return, for every sale arranged by Fat
Tony and Castellano, they got back from Halloran $1 per yard of
concrete poured.
During the same time, "Junior" Persico, the boss of the Colombo
brugad and "Tony Ducks" Corallo, the boss of the Lucchese brugad,
raised a "beef about Halloran being the only one allowed to deliv-
er concrete in Manhattan.
Both of them had connections with concrete plants and wanted
to get a piece of Manhattan. Persico gets $3 to $4 a yard from Fer-
rara Brothers, Ozone Park, Queens, New York, for concrete sales
obtained for them by Junior. Fat Tony and Castellano told them
that Halloran was with them, and given the strength of their fami-
lies, were able to keep Persico and Corallo out of Manhattan.
This worked well until a "beef arose between Castellano and
^alloran regarding payment for some damaged trucks. As a result
of that dispute, Halloran stopped payments to Fat Tony and Castel-
lano, and other concrete companies were allowed into Manhattan.
To control the award of contracts, Vinnie DiNapoli came up with
a plan for the "2 percent Club" consisting of high-rise concrete con-
struction contractors.
The Genovese, Gambino, Lucchese and Colombo brugads ran the
club. Each family had a "made" guy who knew the construction
business as its representative on the club. These individuals ran
the club, but any "beefs" were settled by the bosses of the families.
The club members split up all of the jobs over $2 million. S&A
Concrete got all the jobs over $5 million. After a while, the smaller
contractors who were not members of the club started beefing be-
cause there were not enough jobs under $2 million to go around,
and eventually, the $2 million rule was raised to $3 million. Any-
thing over $5 million still went to S&A concrete.
A club contractor that was given a job had to pay the club 2 per-
cent of the contract price. This 2 percent was split among the four
brugads.
Senator NUNN. Mr. Cafaro, if I could interrupt you right there,
and when you say they control these contracts, and anything over
$5 million went to a certain company, anything under $2 million,
for a period of time, went to people who were not members of the
club, is that right?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. And then you raised that to $3 million?
Mr. CAFARO. Three million.
Senator NUNN. Now how did they control this? Presumably who-
ever is awarding the contract wants a low price. Were they doing it
through rigged bids?
Mr. CAFARO. Through bid rigging. They would put in a bid of—
we say $1.5 million. You would put in your bid for $1.5 million, and
me knowing I could get the job, we knew the bids, and I would tell
you put in a bid for $1.3 million, and that is how the contractors
went along with that.
Senator NUNN. In other words, before the bids were put in, there
was an agreement among the members of the club—
Mr. CAFARO. You put in a bid for $1.5 million, I put in a bid for
$1.3 million, and that is how I got the job.
Senator NUNN. So you knew who was going to be the low bidder
before the bids went in?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, sir.
Senator NUNN. How did you restrict outsiders from bidding?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, there were so many jobs allocated from the
Dodge report. They would get the Dodge report and see how many
jobs were coming up in a certain amount of time, and they would
start to work on the bids from then.
Senator NUNN. Well, you had to make sure nobody that was not
a member of the club bid, right?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, you made sure that was not done because of
the contractors you had. Most of these contractors got all the work
anyway, but you made sure you got so many jobs, I got so many
jobs, he got so many jobs, and it was done with the bid.
Senator NUNN. But you are basically saying there was not any
competition?
Mr. Cafaro. No, none whatsoever.
Senator Nunn. No real competition?
Mr. Cafaro. No.
Senator Roth. Could I ask one question there, Mr. Chairman.
Does that mean all construction on Manhattan was controlled by
these measures?
Mr. Cafaro. I would not say all of it but 75 percent of it.
Senator Roth. Could you estimate what percentage.
Mr. Cafaro. I said 75 percent.
Senator Roth. 75 percent?
Mr. Cafaro. Yes.
Senator Roth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Senator Nunn. Thank you. Go ahead.
Mr. Cafaro. I have reviewed charts of the five New York fami-
lies which have been shown to me by the Subcommittee staff. I
have identified for the Subcommittee staff many of those individ-
uals who I know, either personally or through other amico nostras,
including the five current bosses of the New York families: Vincent
"Chin" Gigante of the Genovese family; John Gotti of the Gambino
family; Victor Amuso of the Lucchese family; Philip Rastelli of the
Bonanno family; and Carmine Persico of the Colombo family.
Senator Nunn. How many of those have you met personally?
How many of those individuals? Let's take them one by one, and
tell us whether you know them personally, or through others.
Mr. Cafaro. I met—well, Vincente "Chin" Gigante is a boss 1
met.
Senator Nunn. You know him personally?
Mr. Cafaro. Personally. John Gotti, I met him at MCC. Nevei;
knew him until I met him at MCC.
Senator Nunn. MCC being? in
Mr. Eames. That is the Metropolitan Corrections Center. x
Senator Nunn. Right. So you met him personally, too?
Mr. Cafaro. Yes. Victor Amuso, "Little Vic," I met him person
ally. Philip Rastelli, I don't know him, never met him.
Senator Nunn. You know him by reputation but not personally c,
Mr. Cafaro. Not personally. And Carmine Junior, I met him pei ;j.
sonally. -; (
Senator Nunn. Persico? ^
Mr. Cafaro. Yes.
Senator Nunn. Thank you. \,^
Mr. Cafaro. As for our own brugad, "Chin" Gigante is na,^
clearly recognized on the streets as the boss. To the outside work".",'
Gigante is known for his sometimes bizarre and crazy behavior.
In truth, he is a shrewd and experienced family member,
has risen through the ranks from soldier to capo to boss. H JJ
strange behavior, suggesting to the outside world that he is craz S:
helps to further insulate him from the authorities.
In the meantime, his control of the family's activities is as stnH*5
and as calculated as ever. > ^
Senator Nunn. Could you give us an example of his so-call
crazy behavior. I* .
Mr. Cafaro. Well, walks around with the robe and his pajam; "*■"
He ^
Senator Nunn. You mean outside? *)• I
Mr. CAFARO. Outside, yes, by the club where he stays. He is
always in his robe and his pajamas, and says crazy things. He does
crazy things.
Senator NUNN. But it is all a guise, you are saying?
Mr. CAFARO. From what I hear, yes.
Senator NUNN. You are saying he is not crazy?
Mr. CAFARO. I do not think so.
Senator NUNN. Go ahead. Thank you.
Mr. CAFARO. As boss, Gigante ultimately controls any of the fam-
ily's deals or scores. He directly controls all numbers operations in
the area from Sullivan Street up to 14th Street.
He runs the St. Anthony Feast, a street festival held annually in
Lower Manhattan. When "Tommy Ryan" was killed, Gigante took
the book on his shylock business. Since that time that money has
gone to Gigante's crew.
I also know that Gigante and John Gotti, as heir to Paul Castel-
lano, and current boss of the Gambino family, both pushed Nick
Auletta for a cut of the profits from the sale of the Bankers and
Brokers Building, as a result of promises supposedly made to Fat
Tony and Paul Castellano when Auletta first bought the building.
Gotti was seeking the money from Auletta because as the new
Gambino boss, he would be entitled to all the business and money
that used to go to Castellano.
For example, I remember Gotti asking me if I knew how much
money Castellano had been getting kicked back every month from
Scoissa Concrete Company.
I did not know but I told Gotti he should contact Funzi Mosca,
who, as the Gambino representative in the "Concrete Club," would
be able to give him the answer.
Thank you. That concludes my statement. I will be glad to
answer any questions you may have.
Senator NUNN. Thank you very much, Mr. Cafaro. Senator Roth
and I have a number of questions. And again, take your time. We
are not in any hurry this morning.
The first question I have, you have used several terms that may
not be clear during your testimony. What do you mean by the
term, for instance, of amico nostra?
Mr. CAFARO. Amico nostra is a wiseguy, a made member.
Senator NUNN. I have not heard that term before. What is the
difference in that and just being a member of the LCN or a made
man? Is that the same thing?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, amico nostra, that is the term I use. Amico
nostra. But you could say, friend of ours.
Senator NUNN. Friend of ours?
Mr. CAFARO. When you are making an introduction of a amico
nostra to meet another amico nostra.
Senator NUNN. Is that your term uniquely, or do others use that
term, too?
Mr. CAFARO. A lot of people do not use those terms. They use
"friend of ours."
Senator NUNN. Why do you use amico nostra?
Mr. CAFARO. I am not going to go through that story now. Well,
at one time I was drinking at a restaurant in a bar. And two
friends of mine walked in, and we were having a few drinks or
whatever, talking about everyday things.
And I told this amico nostra who was a friend, meet a friend of
ours. I do not know if I said friend of ours or friend of mine.
Senator Nunn. You were talking to someone who was a member
of the family about someone—
Mr. Cafaro. Who wasn't a member of the family.
Senator Nunn. About somebody who was not?
Mr. Cafaro. To this amico nostra, who was a member, I must
have said, meet a friend of ours, whatever his name, Jerry or what-
ever. So he took it upon himself to think that he was amico nostra.
So the next day or a couple of days later, or a week later, they
were introducing him as amico nostra, which he was not.
So he come up to see me about a week later, he says, Vince, you
told me that so-and-so is a friend. I says, no, I never said he was a
friend. But you introduced me. If I introduced you as a friend of
ours or a friend, I says, I do not know; what is the problem?
He says, well, everybody is going—I introduced him, and every-
body thinks he is a friend of ours. And I say no, he was never
straightened out. I did not interpret it that way.
And he said, well, he said, I already did it. So I says to him, I
says—he says, you got a problem? I says, no, I says I will see Tony,
and I will discuss it with Tony.
But meanwhile, the kid who was supposed to be straightened out,
says, gee, I got straightened out and I didn't even know about it.
And that was it.
That is why—some oldtimer grabbed me, told me, say amico
nostra, that's a word that was from Portuguese, the wiseguys over
there used to use the word amico nostra, so that the agents or the
cops couldn't infiltrate. They would ask you what's the word, and
you had to say, amico nostra. And that's where it come from.
So I used to say amico nostra after that.
Senator Nunn. So you quit introducing people as a friend of
ours, and started using that term?
Mr. Cafaro. I started using amico nostra.
Senator Nunn. What does the term, brugad, mean?
Mr. Cafaro. That's the family. That's your family.
Senator Nunn. That is the family?
Mr. Cafaro. That all consisted of amico nostras, is the family.
Senator Nunn. Where did that term come from? Is that used
commonly by a lot of people? Or is that just your term?
Mr. Cafaro. That is the way I use it. Same fellow I was telling
you about, amico nostra, he is dead now.
Senator Nunn. You also refer in your affidavit to beefs and sit-
downs. Tell us what a beef is and what a sitdown is?
Mr. Cafaro. A beef is when you can have it within your family
or another family with amico nostra; that's a sitdown. You have a
dispute about something. It could be about a union; it could be
about numbers; it could be anything. That's what a beef means to
us.
Senator Nunn. In other words, a beef is a problem, and a sit-
down is a negotiation?
Mr. Cafaro. Well, the—it is the same thing. A sitdown, who says
a sitdown, who says a beef, it is the same thing.
Senator NUNN. A beef and a sitdown are the same thing?
Mr. CAFARO. Same thing.
Senator NUNN. So a beef is an effort to solve a problem?
Mr. CAFARO. Both are. A beef or a sitdown is the same thing, to
solve a problem.
Senator NUNN. Have you taken part in sitdowns?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. Do sitdowns normally occur between people on
the same level? In other words, soldiers, or capos, or bosses? Is
there a mixed group?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, usually, if there is a beef soldier to soldier, it
is you and the soldier, amico nostras. Or if there is, say, somebody
around me that is not amico nostra, he gets into a problem with
another fellow around another amico nostra, you let them try and
straighten it out.
If they cannot, then we sit down for them. But you go according
to rank. If you cannot straighten out the beef, I tell him or he tells
me, we are going further. Which means going to your captain.
Senator NUNN. You have explained something about the way
you go about requesting permission to murder someone within the
family. Were you ever present when this type of approval for a
murder was requested?
Mr. CAFARO. Requested by the boss?
Senator NUNN. Requested by anyone. In other words, were you
ever present when a member of the family asked the hierarchy for
permission to murder someone?
Mr. CAFARO. You have got to go through your captain, if you are
a soldier. You go through your captain. And you give him the
reason why.
I was there one time when this Philly—what is his name?—this
Philly Buono had come down, he is amico nostra with us in our
regime, and he was looking for an okay with this Nat Masselli.
Senator NUNN. Who was Nat Masselli? Was he a member of the
family?
Mr. CAFARO. No. Not that I know of. I do not know him. I just
know the name.
Senator NUNN. He was outside the family then?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, yes. He come down with a piece of paper, about
as big as this. And I was standing on the corner on 116th Street
with Sammy Santora.
Senator NUNN. In New York City?
Mr. CAFARO. In New York City, yes. And he come down, he
pulled this paper out of his pocket, and he showed it to Sammy.
Senator NUNN. Sammy was who?
Mr. CAFARO. He was the underboss in our brugad at the time.
Senator NUNN. Santora?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. And he showed him the paper. Sammy read it,
he said, well, could this hurt you? He says, yeah, I did a few things
with this kid. And the kid was supposed to be a rat. So Sammy
says, all right, I'll get back to you tomorrow.
So I says to Sammy, what are you going to do? He said, I am
going to go down and see the skinny guy and the "Chin".
Senator NUNN. Who was the skinny guy?
Mr. CAFARO. That is what I interpret as Bobby Manna.
Senator NUNN. Who was Bobby Manna?
Mr. CAFARO. Bobby Manna is the consigliere in our brugad.
Senator NUNN. Of the family?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. And who was the "Chin"?
Mr. CAFARO. The boss of the family.
Senator NUNN. And tell us the name of the boss.
Mr. CAFARO. Oh, "Chin" Gigante, Vincent Gigante.
Senator NUNN. So the "Chin" was Gigante?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. Go ahead.
Mr. CAFARO. And he went down and supposedly seen him that
day or that night. And I had seen Sammy the next day or a day
later, whatever it was, and I asked him, I said, how did you do? He
says, yeah, I got the okay for Philly. He says, in fact I got to go see
Philly and tell him it is okay to do what he wants. And that was
the situation.
Senator NUNN. What happened?
Mr. CAFARO. I do not know if it was a week later or two weeks
later, whatever, the kid was found killed in his car in the Bronx.
Senator NUNN. The kid being Nat Masselli?
Mr. CAFARO. Nat Masselli, right.
Senator NUNN. The one the request was made on?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN. Was anyone ever tried for that murder or hit?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, they were convicted, this Philly Buono and Sal
Odierno.
Senator NUNN. Was anyone else involved in the actual murder?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, not that I know of, Senator.
Senator NUNN. So they were actually arrested, tried and convict-
ed?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN. Do you know how that murder was carried out?
Mr. CAFARO. No.
Senator NUNN. Was it by gun, or do you know?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, according to what the newspapers say, he was
killed in a car.
Senator NUNN. Were you present during conversations regarding
the disappearance of Teddy Maritas?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, there was one conversation. I was standing on
the corner on 115th Street and First Avenue.
Senator NUNN. That is again in New York City?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. I was talking to some people. And Vinny DiNa-
poli asked me—he wanted to ask me something.
Senator NUNN. Who is that?
Mr. CAFARO. Vinny DiNapoli. He is amico nostra with us, with
our regime. He says, I am a little worried about this Teddy Mari-
tas.
I say, what do you mean, what? He said, I am a little scared
about him. He was standing trial then on some concrete case,
something, I do not know what about.
I says, so what are you telling me for? Go discuss it with Sammy,
Sammy Santora. And that was the extent of it.
Senator NUNN. Do you know whether he did discuss it with
Sammy later?
Mr. CAFARO. I do not know, Senator. I never spoke about it any
more.
Senator NUNN. What happened to Maritas?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, according to the newspapers, he was missing.
Senator NUNN. How much later after that conversation?
Mr. CAFARO. I could not tell you offhand.
Senator NUNN. Several months, or within a year?
Mr. CAFARO. Could have been several months, several weeks.
Senator NUNN. Do you know, or do you have any way of know-
ing, or do you have any belief, about who was responsible for his
disappearance?
Mr. CAFARO. I do not know. For him to ask something like that, I
would say
Senator NUNN. You would just be guessing, would you not? You
do not really know?
Mr. CAFARO. I do not know.
Senator NUNN. Well, let us leave that one off. Was anyone ever
convicted in connection with Maritas' disappearance?
Mr. CAFARO. No, Senator.
Senator NUNN. Do you have any knowledge regarding the
murder of Tony Bananas? I believe the formal name is Antonio Ca-
po nigro.
Mr. CAFARO. Well, when the old man Bruno got killed in Phila-
delphia.
Senator NUNN. That is Angelo Bruno?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. And he had got killed, he was the boss of the
Philadelphia mob. And there was supposed to have been a power
struggle there between this fellow, Chicken, he was the underboss
there, and this Tony Bananas.
Senator NUNN. Chicken was Phillip Testa, wasn't it?
Mr. CAFARO. Philly Testa, right. He had come up to New York at
one time to see Tony. And who was there was Tony "Ducks", Tom
"Mix"
Senator NUNN. Is Tony "Ducks" Corallo?
Mr. CAFARO. He is the boss of the Luchese family, Tony "Ducks"
Corallo. Tom "Mix" Santora was the underboss.
Senator NUNN. Who was Tom "Mix"?
Mr. CAFARO. He was the underboss of the Luchese family.
Senator NUNN. That is his nickname. What is his
Mr. CAFARO. Santoro. And Paul Castellano was there and Fat
Tony. And this Chicken went and seen them. So when I seen Tony
later on, after they had their meeting in the club, he said that
there was a power struggle between Philly Testa and Tony Ba-
nanas Caponigro, and that there was a power struggle.
And then after that, a couple of hours after that, this Tony Ba-
nanas come to discuss it with Tony, and there was present Tony
Ducks Corallo of the Luchese mob; Tom Mix Santora, the under-
boss of the Luchese mob; and Paul Castellano, and Fat Tony.
And whatever they discussed, I do not know. But about a week
later this Philly Testa come back. So Tony introduced me to him as
the underboss of the Philadelphia mob.
So he says to Tony that he thinks Tony Bananas was guilty of
the murder of Angelo Bruno. And that was the extent to that.
Then about a week after that, Tony Bananas come up or 2 weeks
after, he wanted to discuss something with Tony, and we were
walking. And Tony said, I do not want to get involved. I do not
want to hear about it. Go see Chin.
Senator NUNN. Who was he telling that to?
Mr. CAFARO. Tony Bananas. And that was the extent of that part
of the conversation.
Then about a couple of weeks later, I do not remember the
weeks, Tony Bananas had to go to 47th or 48th Street in the dia-
mond center to meet Baldy Dom Cantarino, he is a caporegime in
our brugad. And he had to meet Baldy Dom, whatever his name is.
I cannot say the last name, and he had to meet him there between,
I do not know, 47th or 48th Street in the diamond exchange.
And then that day or a couple of days later, they were found in
the Bronx dead; Tony Bananas.
Senator NUNN. I did not hear that last part?
Mr. CAFARO. I says, Tony Bananas, a couple of days later or next
day or two, 3 days later, was found in the Bronx dead.
Senator NUNN. You believe there was a direct connection be-
tween those conversations and his murder, then?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. Do you have any way of knowing who carried out
the hit?
Mr. CAFARO. No.
Senator NUNN. So you do not know who carried it out?
Mr. CAFARO. No.
Senator NUNN. I am puzzled by the connection between the
Philadelphia family and the New York family. Why was the New
York family, your family, concerned about the murder of Bruno in
Philadelphia?
Mr. CAFARO. It was not only our family. It was Paul Castellan
there, Tony Ducks Corallo was there, and Tom Mix.
Senator NUNN. So there were three families?
Mr. CAFARO. Three families there.
Senator NUNN. Three New York families concerning the
murder
Mr. CAFARO. The killing of Angelo Bruno, being that he was a
boss of another brugad. And usually it is not done that way, to kill
a boss, without discussing it. So there is where the power play
must have come in.
Senator NUNN. In other words, Bruno had been killed in Phila-
delphia
Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN [continuing]. And he had been killed obviously
without a discussion among the other top mob leaders
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.
Senator NUNN [continuing]. In the country, or at least in New-
York?
Mr. CAFARO. At least in New York or whatever. It was never dis-
cussed.
Senator NUNN. So they felt it was not within the overall protocol
or the rules of the mob?
Mr. CAFARO. It wasn't in the rules; no, it wasn't in the rules.
Senator NUNN. To kill the boss without discussing it with other
bosses?
Mr. CAFARO. Without discussing any reasoning or whatever.
Senator NUNN. Did they feel that they themselves might be in
jeopardy if that protocol broke down, if they didn't enforce it?
Mr. CAFARO. I would say yes. I would say yes.
Senator NUNN. So it was something that offended them pretty
seriously?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator, I would say.
Senator NUNN. Did Tony talk to you about this? Did he go into
any detail?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, no, after this killing with Tony Bananas, the
following week, he says, I am glad I sent him down to Chin; I did
not get involved with this.
Senator NUNN. Why was he glad he did not get involved?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, my interpretation I guess is that because of
the killing.
Senator NUNN. So he would prefer not to have been involved.
Mr. CAFARO. That is a family problem within—let them straight-
en out their own problems.
Senator NUNN. In other words, he would rather for Chin to be
the one to make that decision rather than him?
Mr. CAFARO. Either that, or he just did not want to get involved
with a family problem from another brugad.
Senator NUNN. Did Fat Tony tell you about the killing? Is that
the way you found out about it?
Mr. CAFARO. No, I read it in the papers. It was in the newspa-
pers.
Senator NUNN. And did Fat Tony ever tell you who he thought
did the—actually carried out the killing?
Mr. CAFARO. Well, he had said to me, that is how I know about
the appointment on 47th or 48th street in the diamond exchange,
that it was an appointment made with Baldy Dom down there.
Senator NUNN. Appointment made with?
Mr. CAFARO. With Tony Bananas and Baldy Dom.
Senator NUNN. Baldy Dom?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes, he s a caporegime in our brugad.
Senator NUNN. Did Fat Tony tell you that Baldy Dom's crew ac-
tually carried out the killing?
Mr. CAFARO. No, he did not tell me they carried out the killing.
My opinion, I would say yes.
Senator NUNN. Your opinion?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. I misunderstood the question.
Senator NUNN. I believe in your affidavit, let me read that and
see if this is correct, you say, reading, that in April 1980—this is
page four, for counsel, page four of the affidavit. I am sorry, page
12 and 13 of the affidavit.
Let me read this to you and see where it is in error, if in error,
or whether it is accurate if it is accurate.
You say, "In April 1980, Tony Bananas' visited Tony Salerno, at
the Palma Boys Social Club. After this visit, Tony told me that he
had advised "Tony Bananas' to go see "The Chin,' because he did
not want to get involved in Philadelphia's problems.
