Though it would be extremely unlikely, both practically and historically speaking, a smaller family like the Sopranos/DeCavalcantes could go theoretically go to war with a NY family.

I don't think the total membership thing plays into it as much as people think. A NY family like the Lupertazzi's may have 200 members. But it's not like the Army where everybody can be drafted or called into service. So it's really not a 200 vs. 40-50 thing.

And hurting the smaller family economically would probably be a more effective and practical weapon than killing guys.

Good thread. Another proof that Tony wasn't boss material is that he was easily manipulated by Johnny Sack. Remember how Johnny Sack almost talked Tony into killing Carmine Lupertazzi just so he himself could become the boss of that NY family. What could the Sopranos possibly gain from such move considering that killing Carmine would generate A LOT of heat and probably start a war? Just because Johnny promised Tony a higher percentage from those HUD scams Tony was ready to do it, lol. It was definitely not worth the risk.

I'm sure that if this hit went through Johnny (the snake as he was) would sacrifice Tony next. He'd have no problems convicing his family that Tony was responsible for the hit (given the tensions between the families at that time) and would start a war against NJ, probably get all the other families on the comission on his side in the process (because Tony had boss of the 5 families whacked without permission) and then install Paulie as his NJ puppet. I mean, even a semi-decent mob boss should sense something like this was Johnny's plan and that killing Carmine (a boss of one of the 5 families) is equal to a suicide.

And then in season 6 Johnny asked Tony to whack Rusty, a major player in the NY mob, as a "favour" and Tony agreed. He had nothing to gain by doing favours for imprisoned Johnny who was clearly losing his power and by killing Rusty (who had no beef with NJ whatsoever) he made way for Phil (his nemesis) to take over later.

Tony was insecure and always wanted to prove something to NY which ultimately led to a war.

Well to be fair, Tony obviously did sense something was up with Johnnys plan, hence why he didn't go through with taking out Carmine.

Taking out Rusty was IMO a way to keep Johnny happy so that maybe he can keep some control over Phil.

So I'm not sure Tony was the worst boss ever depicted. There are plenty of mob bosses who have been significant characters on screen worse than Tony. But despite making a few smart, calculating moves, such as making Junior a lightning rod, i think he was a pretty bad one. There are a number of questionable decisions made throughout the series. Of course hindsight is 20/20 especially for a fictional show, but I too agree there should have been more internal tension regarding the whole Tony Egg thing.

Tony called the hit off only after Carmine unexpectedly decided to compromise and meet Tony's demands. Those blacks that Chrissy knew already had clear instructions how to take out Carmine, it was a matter of days. Besides, conspiring to kill a boss is a major thing that doesn't just go away like that as if nothing ever happened, Johnny himself reminded Tony of that ("The thing is, we had those conversations. Your mouth was moving along with mine").

As for Rusty... Indeed by keeping Johnny happy Tony thought Phil would be controlled. But Johnny's power was clearly fading at that point and he was facing 15 years in jail minimum. By killing Rusty, Tony potentially made a lot of enemies in that family, if it ever came out that he was behind it, and it didn't really win him much sympathy from Johnny's/Phil's faction.

Remember when at that sitdown in the last episode Tony accused the deceased Johnny Sack of creating constant tensions between the two families, but in reality it was actually him who was doing that since 4th season or so. At least, I see it this way.

All in all, it wasn't wise from Tony to get so much involved in NY problems and it ultimately backfired. Of course though, it's a show and it made the plot interesting so I have no problems with it.

Making Junior a lighting rod IMO wasn't a good decision. It's not like Chin-Salerno situation because Juniors didn't know about this arrangement and it naturally made him very angry when he found out. It sparked a war and Tony was lucky not to be killed because of it.

Tony was good at recognizing rats though and had some charisma. I don't agree that he was "the worst" boss ever depicted neither it's just that Sopranos are by far the most famous TV depiction of the modern LCN which is in decline, so it's natural we won't see a 'Michael Corleone' or something.

For TV Tony was great..based on real life Tony wasn't even a good made guy..he sees a shrink..punishable by death, he rats out feech to the cops...punishable by death, he kills the family's best earner over a horse...should be a severe punishment, allows Christopher to live after he becomes a junkie AND after his fiancee becomes an FBI informant...should be punishable by death, protects Tony b(an associate) after he kills a made guy unsanctioned, which real life rules are u gotta let Phil exact his revenge....and there's a lot more so based on real life Tony wouldn't even cut it as a soldato let alone anything higher

Yeah Tony was a terrible boss, the only one i disagree with is it wasn't just over a horse Ralph was killed that was the last straw. Killing that stripper at the bing and pissing NY off with that Ginny Sack joke were punsihable by death as you put it imo. Also him being just a genuine hothead, who could've flipped at any moment. The rest i completely agree with though.

Pussy became a rat while Jackie Aprile was running things. (Shown in flashback scene) So you can't blame Pussy selling heroin on Tony being cheap...In reality you can't blame it on anyone....except Pussy.


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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...To_Save_Us_All_from_Satan%27s_Power

I liked Tony and he was a great actor. In real life he was not Boss material. I didn't like the way he sent Feech back to prison. I would have respected Tony if he either straightened out Feech's behavior or killed him. In real life, they would have killed Feech. If the Bosses cannot control you, they kill you. Same goes for Christopher and his drug addiction. It would never have gone on that long in real life.

yea that's true camarel there def was a lil more behind the ralph killing..i guess I was just tryin to make my case a lil stronger by leavin out the rest lol

worst is a over statement,but half of it was to keep the story moving.

Ralphie killing that horse IMO was some sort of revenge against Tony who took his girlfriend Valentina. Remember how Tony beat the shit out of that senator for dating his ex-mistress but when he himself started dating Ralphie's ex he expected Ralph to just accept it and move on. Another example of him being a bad boss.

he was pretty inept. I started rewatching the first season a couple of weeks ago (i've seen the whole show 2 or 3 times, although after seeing it the first time i would skip over the non-mob stuff so episodes would take like 15 minutes).

The thing about tony is that he's smart enough to think, but not smart enough to reason through it. He basically explains this the first few times he see's melfi when he's trying to convince her that he knows psychiatry but he really doesn't. He understands what it is, but he doesn't understand it completely.

It's like this in every thing he does throughout the show. He understands just enough to not be a total block head, but doesn't understand enough to be smart. He got to where he got because he happened to be johnny's kid and he can't ration things beyond his emotional state at that time. He does so many things that are unquestionably against lcn protocal that it's frustrating. Yes we understand these rules aren't written in stone and a guy like tony would get more leeway to break the rules than a less connected guy, even someone like paulie ever could, but after a while it becomes to much.

I blame this more on the show's writing than what the character is supposed to be within the world. But tony's not good and I can't imagine he would have lasted nearly as long as he did if it wasn't necessary for the show because the show is about his life.

the whole premise of the show wasn't the big powerful mafia don

it was about a small mob family and his weirdo crew

that's what made his acting great because he wasn't supposed to be the man

he was just the man in his goofy neighborhood

Is anyone else surprised that a fairly shrewd guy like Tony got hustled by his Father's mistress? She gets the cut from the go-cart track,money to pay her bills,(that she blew on 600 dollar shoes),and both embarrasses herself and Tony by trying to be seductive with her Marilyn Monroe impersonation.It seems like Tony wised up after the damage was done,but how did he not see through her from the get-go? Is it possible that he did know,but had a reason (known only to himself) to allow her to con him.

I have same feeling on the show. As it went from season to season, they got even weirder. Vito in gay club dancing with that hat and chains. Pauly Walnuts acting like fool when he visits psychic who mentions people who he killed was goofiest. The Pine Barrens episode, which I am got turned off by. They lose the Russian, go into total panic at being lost immediately, and turn on each other quickly, but in away that made them look like they were in a comedy instead of a drama.

Weirdo crew is right. For some reason, the annoying, overweight Janice was depicted as the hot, desirable chick on the show.

Richie lusted after and wanted to marry her. She dumped him permanently. Ralphie wanted to move in with her and was literally kicked to the curb. And then Bacala succumbed to her charm, marries her, and they have a daughter.

What did all of these high ranking mafioso see in her?

Janice was only appealing to those guys because she was the bosses sister. It was a power move every time, she knew and she was manipulating just like her mother. I really liked the richie character and she got in his head and things went sideways.

Tony was probably against his sister dating Richie. IIRC, Richie was house shopping with Janice at the same time he was looking to take out Tony as the boss. If Richie took over the family, would he have dumped her? Seems that he was dating her before Tony took over the family.

If Tony got whacked before Bobby B, would Bobby have dumped Janice? I'd say no. However, I agree that this relationship paid huge dividends for Bobby. He even beat up Anthony without any outward repercussions.

Ralphie was making a ton of money, yet wanted to move in with Janice. Was he a capo at the time or was dating Tony's sister going to make him a capo?

Janice was completely miscast. If she was going to be the irresistible milf, they could have picked an irresistible milf to play the part. For example, Sharon Stone was a great choice to play Ginger in Casino.

Richie and Janice did have a history prior to the show, but a big part of janice's attractiveness to those guys is that it gets them into tony's orbit. When you date janice you get sunday dinner's at the boss's house, get to be all family gatherings; you have direct and consistant access to tony, which a lot of the guys don't have. Richie got promoted to capo when he got out of jail but how many other capo's at that was tony talking with on a regular basis other than paulie? (unless you count junior as a capo, he was technically boss in rank but his crew consisted of just he and bobby)

I don't think janice was ever meant to be attractive and I think that's part of the psychological torment from their mother and it's effects are big theme of the show). I also think that part of the reason they had her get involved with those guys was to show her being manipulative just like her mother.

Some men love those big titties! Remember the scene when Richie was doing her from behind with a gun to her head? I have a friend who would eat that ass!

Tony felt compelled to take care of a woman that his dad took care of for so many years.

I think the thing with Janice was all political. Richie I believe used to date her in high school (so maybe she was hot then?) so he might have had an excuse to get back with her (although there's no indication if they were seriously dating or if it was just a fling), but even that was so he could get closer to Tony and demand his old stuff back since he was out of prison. Of course it's implied that Richie is bisexual or at least had some homosexual encounters while in prison (when he gets out and they give him a party at the Bing, he has the lights off while the stripper gives him a blowjob and when asked if he likes it in the dark says "Yeah, something like that", and takes major offense at the notion his son might be gay.)

Ralphie was almost certainly just doing it to get into Tony's good graces since he was still in the doghouse from beating Tracee to death and being a general scumbag. Also given the shit he was into maybe Janice was one of the only people who would do it to him.

I think Bobby might have had genuine affection (wasn't his deceased wife somewhat plump too? I can't remember) but again the relationship was more for power and to get an "in" with Tony than because Janice was some great catch. The king's ugly sister is still the king's sister, so you put up with the fact she's ugly because it gives you a political edge.

the way i see the show is this. like someone above said it wasnt about portraying all powerful, untouchable mafia family. quite the opposite, thats why the show is set in the late 90s, the time of mafia decline, and the main family is not some of the big ones from NY, but a small one from NJ. its all shown at the beginning of the show, when tonys crew are playing cards and in the background on a tv is going a conversation about how mafia isnt powerful as it used to be, and also tonys complaining to melfi how guys today flip all the time, and how its nothing like in the "old days". that said i wouldnt look at the things from "was tony a good or bad boss" stand point. just look at some of the top wiseguys. paulie is a frickin clown(loved his character nevertheless), pussy is a rat, top earners like vito and ralphie ara homosexuals and unpredictable coke addicts, bosses protege was also a hopeless drug addict. on the other hand look how old school "by the book" guys like richie and feech ended up. dead and in jail. i think all this sums up what the show is really about, portraying mafia during the difficult time and disappearance of old cosa nostra values. so i wouldnt be so harsh as to call tony a bad boss. of course he was paranoid, too proud and selfish with little regard for the rules. but he wasnt the only one, the whole mafia was like that. just look how many rats there were during the show. tony, as all others is just a product of new, modern time.

add to all this a little family drama, and u get what in the end all this is ultimately about. a great tv show.

Due to the fact that his father and uncle were reputables with strong connects to NY and his relationship with Johnny Sack, he abused his power. He always felt he was entitled to more than his share. Very dangerous when dealing with the five families.