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Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728778
07/22/13 10:27 PM
07/22/13 10:27 PM
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So-Cal
vinnietoothpicks26 Offline
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Sicilianbabe.
Infrastructure to attract workers?
Are you kidding?

Texas, Tennesse and florida attract plenty of workers to the state and they put their kids in private schools. Your opinion is as I said before, based on your living in New York City. A place where you can tax people to kingdom come and they will still live there. It doesn't apply to places that need to incentivize business.
And there is another end to the spectrum of what your talking about.
The fact is, if you look at places like detroit, chicago and california, it hasnt been the friendly business environment and low taxes that have brought about the destruction of their economies.

I dont work as a greeter, I work in the private sector. Unlike you, as you worked in government, so of course you believe the government needs to have a greater hand.

I would never work in Government, I don't want to be apart of a wastful inefficient beuracracy.

Last edited by vinnietoothpicks26; 07/22/13 10:30 PM.

Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728779
07/22/13 10:30 PM
07/22/13 10:30 PM
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Massachusetts, USA
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123JoeSchmo Offline
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Obviously there are pros and cons to both sides of this deal. But I do agree that some of these blue states are running risks of not being able to pay these union pension funds, and other benefits. So you raise taxes right? Well look at Detroit, no revenue was brought it because 1) politicians scammed the money 2) people moved out of detroit more and more, and you can't get dick from taxes when everyone in the inner city is dirt poor. New York won't go that way, neither will Chicago or Philly. But other rust belt cities that are blue and heavily unionized will be at risk, Syracuse being an example.

Southern states have right to work laws. Minimum wage is lower, it's true education is not as good, and there is a larger income gap. However the reason why places like Charlotte, NC and Phoenix, Arizona boomed is because those places are good for retirement and/or for business. When you have lower taxes, right to work laws, and undeveloped land and cities that aren't hampered by unions you'll get more business and attract more people. However, there is a flip side to every coin. I would just be more concerned by towns and cities that can't afford pension plans anymore than Texas, Florida, or Tennessee who are still going strong economic wise.

And SB, Nicky is right, everyone on here has to stop throwing the racism card it's getting annoying


"Don't ever go against the family again. Ever"- Michael Corleone
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: 123JoeSchmo] #728782
07/22/13 10:37 PM
07/22/13 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: 123JoeSchmo
I would just be more concerned by towns and cities that can't afford pension plans anymore than Texas, Florida, or Tennessee who are still going strong economic wise.

thank you joe

And you want to talk about the housing crisis? Lets talk about what started it which was a very liberal policy that "everyone should own a house" so lets make it easy as pie to buy one. I am a CPA, I deal on a daily basis with mortgage interest deduction, and I think it is a useful stimulator. But beyond that, the policies taht were put in place by Billy Clinton was what got us into the housing crisis. a DEM

Last edited by vinnietoothpicks26; 07/22/13 10:38 PM.

Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728783
07/22/13 10:48 PM
07/22/13 10:48 PM
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Massachusetts, USA
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123JoeSchmo Offline
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To be fair a lot of Bill Clinton's policies were good. He was an intelligent man who governed most of the time from the center as a President should. I also don't see a reason why everyone shouldn't be able to buy a house, but within reason. Obviously the technical stuff would be left up to people who knew more about it but we can't have another housing debacle which is what got us in this mess in the first place along with several other factors


"Don't ever go against the family again. Ever"- Michael Corleone
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728784
07/22/13 10:51 PM
07/22/13 10:51 PM
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Posts: 17,300
New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
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Actually, what got us into the housing crisis was that people leveraged fake equity to buy more and more, literally building houses of cards. The banks were ridiculously lenient with their lending, giving money with little to no collateral to back it up. People were leveraging that fake equity to then buy more homes. When they couldn't sell for enough to pay off the original debt, then the defaults started rolling in.

Sorry, Joe, don't tell me to stop telling the truth. If I see a racist statement, then I'm going to call it a racist statement. Obviously, the poster thought better of it since it has been deleted, but wouldn't it be even better for people to stop MAKING them than people to stop calling them out???


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728787
07/22/13 10:57 PM
07/22/13 10:57 PM
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So-Cal
vinnietoothpicks26 Offline
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And, why were people able to get fake equity? Your not contradicting anything I said. If you want to get into a nuanced debate I am more than capable of doing so, but I figured for the purpose of this thread you were merely looking for surface level discussions.
Moreover, you seemed to be adept to make arguments that dont contradict me and just seem to argue for the sake of arguing. I can do the same.

Heres one:
The best way to have a strong economy is free market economics. Keynsian economics that is employed in coutnries like Greece, Britain and France have done wonders. Socialism destroys not only the economy, but the motivation of the individual. Governments limited purpose should be to facilitate the individual in their attempts to be great, not disincentivizing it by making it impossible to make a move without having to fill out 100 forms and comply with nonsensical regulation.
Government has its place, but it should be limited. See Detroit et al.


Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728788
07/22/13 10:57 PM
07/22/13 10:57 PM
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Massachusetts, USA
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123JoeSchmo Offline
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Of course Sicilian Babe. I didn't see the statement so I can't pass down a judgement on it, but it just seems to be that the word "racism" is being tossed around very loosely these days when something might not be at all. Hell I've had three people on here call me a racist within the past two weeks! Nothing could be further from the truth!


"Don't ever go against the family again. Ever"- Michael Corleone
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728789
07/22/13 11:00 PM
07/22/13 11:00 PM
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vinnietoothpicks26 Offline
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And using the term racist when it doesn't apply is truly a refuge for non thinkers. What I said was true. HOw many minority republicans are there? Why are the vast majority democrats?
The only minority republicans you ever hear about (herman cain, west in florida) get called uncle Tom's. Why? For being different? For being unique? For having hte balls to not fall in line with what everyone else is doing?
I call that a thinking for ones self, not an uncle Tom.

Last edited by vinnietoothpicks26; 07/22/13 11:01 PM.

Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728790
07/22/13 11:01 PM
07/22/13 11:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
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And, Joe, the reason that places like Charlotte are successful is because business sprung up out of the university system. It's called the "research triangle" because the minds that were attracted there for school then spread out into research and development companies. They were smart enough to form a coalition between the University of North Carolina and private business. Excellent economic development strategy, because you will attract and retain an excellent business base with high-paying jobs.

And, yes, infrastructure is critical to business. If you don't have public water, reliable and affordable electricity and excellent highways and other transportation options (shipping, rail, air), you're doomed.

As for private schools, why should I pay real estate taxes and then pay tuition, too? Isn't that what my taxes are for? To pay for public schools? Why wouldn't I want my money's worth?


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728791
07/22/13 11:03 PM
07/22/13 11:03 PM
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Clearly the taxes don't get used for their proper purposes in places run by Dems. Democratic administrations use the money to pay for entitlements; and Im not talkinga bout public educatin. YOu should be mad at the wasteful govenrment for not spending your money properly. And yes, New York is the exception; SEE ABOVE.


Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: vinnietoothpicks26] #728792
07/22/13 11:07 PM
07/22/13 11:07 PM
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Posts: 17,300
New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
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Originally Posted By: vinnietoothpicks26
And using the term racist when it doesn't apply is truly a refuge for non thinkers. What I said was true.


If you're so proud of your original statement, why did you delete it? Why don't you restate it, word for word?

Joe, I can't speak for other people and I don't understand why someone would say that about you. I think you're a pretty smart guy who always makes interesting and thought-provoking posts.


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728793
07/22/13 11:13 PM
07/22/13 11:13 PM
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vinnietoothpicks26 Offline
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Another straw man just to contradict. You may like Joe because his ideas more so comport with yours, but me and you, our opinions appear to be mutually exclusive. See above for what I said about minority republicans being called uncle toms. What did Al Sharpton (a highly sophisticated successfull human being) say about Justice Clarence Thomas. Sharpton said he wished "there was a real black man on the supreme court". This is what we are dealing with hear.
Al sharpton, an uneducated fbi informant has the balls to call into a question a mans race who sits on the highest court in this great nation. Who is Al Sharpton?

Answer my question Sicillian. Think about it, dont go into the refuge of name calling, actually think about it.
Why do African American republicans have their race challenged? Why?
Why are 99% of minorities in this country Democrats?

Last edited by vinnietoothpicks26; 07/22/13 11:14 PM.

Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728794
07/22/13 11:14 PM
07/22/13 11:14 PM
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LittleNicky Offline
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"And, yes, infrastructure is critical to business. If you don't have public water, reliable and affordable electricity and excellent highways and other transportation options (shipping, rail, air), you're doomed."

That's called a straw-man, because someone is against big government doesnt mean they are for no government at all. All those things are basic classical liberalism (ie libertarism) of about 1900. All those things mentioned are the basic state functions of protection against force, theft, fraud.

The massive government expenditures today (the blue state model) go way beyond those basic roles- into every aspect of life, into regulating every market transaction, into spending massive amounts of money redistributing to others. Entitlements and public sector pensions are the massive costs of modern governments- not fixing pot holes or actually providing government services.


Should probably ask Mr. Kierney. I guess if you're Italian, you should be in prison.
I've read the RICO Act, and I can tell you it's more appropriate...
for some of those guys over in Washington than it is for me or any of my fellas here
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728795
07/22/13 11:14 PM
07/22/13 11:14 PM
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Posts: 1,769
Massachusetts, USA
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123JoeSchmo Offline
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Well thank you Sicilian babe I appreciate it. I think you are a very smart individual as well despite our politics differing at times. I also would like to point out that northerners who moved down to areas like Charlotte had a great deal to do with the rise of the banking industry there. Less taxes, more business, more space and plenty of neighborhoods to raise a family in. Though you are right about the research triangle but that wasn't the only reason


"Don't ever go against the family again. Ever"- Michael Corleone
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728796
07/22/13 11:16 PM
07/22/13 11:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
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I'll answer your question when you answer mine. If you were so proud of your original statement, why did you delete? If you stand by it, why don't you restate it?


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728797
07/22/13 11:18 PM
07/22/13 11:18 PM
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vinnietoothpicks26 Offline
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They vote democrat for the entitlements. Is that actually up for dispute? Seriously. Thats a racist comment? If its racist, then the truth is racist. Like Dr. MLK said (a great african american, and a REPUBLICAN), "the truth shall set you free."


Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728798
07/22/13 11:25 PM
07/22/13 11:25 PM
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New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
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Nicky, I was responding to the following that Vinnie had posted:
"Infrastructure to attract business? Are you kidding?" I felt it necessary to explain why those basics are essential.

Nicky, You think I spent 14 years in economic development and don't know about unfunded mandates? Ridiculous amounts of our tax dollars go to fund Medicaid and programs like "No Child Left Behind", which I hope they actually repeal at the next go-around. We are also over-burdened with unrealistic civil pension programs. When someone's pension earnings are actually higher than their salaries were, the system is seriously broken and in desperate need of an overhaul.


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: vinnietoothpicks26] #728800
07/22/13 11:30 PM
07/22/13 11:30 PM
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Posts: 17,300
New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
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Originally Posted By: vinnietoothpicks26
They vote democrat for the entitlements. Is that actually up for dispute? Seriously. Thats a racist comment? If its racist, then the truth is racist. Like Dr. MLK said (a great african american, and a REPUBLICAN), "the truth shall set you free."


Yes, it is. Because you said that all minorities vote democrat so that they can work the system, freeload and suck from actual workers.

Yes, that's a racist statement. Because I know LOTS of minorities who work very hard and contribute LOTS to society. I know doctors and teachers and small businesspeople who are minorities. They all work, they all contribute to society, they don't freeload, I daresay that some of them might even be Republicans.


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728801
07/22/13 11:31 PM
07/22/13 11:31 PM
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Midwest
LittleNicky Offline
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Unfunded liabilities and unfunded mandates are completely different things. One is a political science term relating to federal imposition of legal responsibilities on states regardless of budget constraints and with no federal funds. The other is a finance term to a amount, at any given time, by which future payment obligations exceed the present value of funds available to pay them.

I recommend you research unfunded liabilities- because it actually gives accurate debt pictures rather than the garbage that institutions like CALPERS reports.


Should probably ask Mr. Kierney. I guess if you're Italian, you should be in prison.
I've read the RICO Act, and I can tell you it's more appropriate...
for some of those guys over in Washington than it is for me or any of my fellas here
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: Sicilian Babe] #728804
07/22/13 11:36 PM
07/22/13 11:36 PM
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vinnietoothpicks26 Offline
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[quote=Sicilian Babe
Because I know LOTS of minorities who work very hard and contribute LOTS to society. I know doctors and teachers and small businesspeople who are minorities. They all work, they all contribute to society, they don't freeload, I daresay that some of them might even be Republicans. [/quote]

You just defined cookcounty in a nutshell.


Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: Sicilian Babe] #728805
07/22/13 11:36 PM
07/22/13 11:36 PM
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Midwest
LittleNicky Offline
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Originally Posted By: Sicilian Babe
Originally Posted By: vinnietoothpicks26
They vote democrat for the entitlements. Is that actually up for dispute? Seriously. Thats a racist comment? If its racist, then the truth is racist. Like Dr. MLK said (a great african american, and a REPUBLICAN), "the truth shall set you free."


Yes, it is. Because you said that all minorities vote democrat so that they can work the system, freeload and suck from actual workers.

Yes, that's a racist statement. Because I know LOTS of minorities who work very hard and contribute LOTS to society. I know doctors and teachers and small businesspeople who are minorities. They all work, they all contribute to society, they don't freeload, I daresay that some of them might even be Republicans.


Have you heard of the term "on average"? Nobody is saying that everyone is a given group is bad. What is being suggested is people vote for their self-interest- that interest being gaining concentrated benefits and dispersing costs on taxpayers.


Should probably ask Mr. Kierney. I guess if you're Italian, you should be in prison.
I've read the RICO Act, and I can tell you it's more appropriate...
for some of those guys over in Washington than it is for me or any of my fellas here
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728806
07/22/13 11:40 PM
07/22/13 11:40 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
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We unfortunately have too much of both - unfunded liabilities and unfunded mandates. We cannot possibly sustain the spending on civil pensions and medical benefits (which may actually be killing us more) that we have.

My brother, for example, retired from teaching at the age of 57. God willing, he will live for many decades. However, he receives 2/3 of his salary for the rest of his life, plus for the grand sum of $4500 a year he is able to purchase an excellent medical plan for him and his wife. Cops get the same thing, except they can retire after only 20 years on the job! How can any government possibly sustain that when people are living into their 90s?


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728810
07/22/13 11:44 PM
07/22/13 11:44 PM
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New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
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Nicky, please, you didn't see the original statement, so you can't really comment. The original statement specifically used the words "ALL" in caps, just like that, and said that ALL minorities live to freeload and suck their livelihoods off of workers. That's racist. Period.


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728811
07/22/13 11:46 PM
07/22/13 11:46 PM
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LittleNicky Offline
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In CA, most cops/firefighters/prison guards GET 90 percent of the average of final three years of salary. Can you imagine not working but collecting 90 percent of your pay?

It's insane we have defined benefit pensions plans anywhere in the US today. They are ticking time bombs in modern markets. Its the reason we can't build roads or fill pot holes- but we will pay for these pensions for the rest of our lives and our children's lives. Or until bankruptcy.

Last edited by LittleNicky; 07/22/13 11:47 PM.

Should probably ask Mr. Kierney. I guess if you're Italian, you should be in prison.
I've read the RICO Act, and I can tell you it's more appropriate...
for some of those guys over in Washington than it is for me or any of my fellas here
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728812
07/22/13 11:48 PM
07/22/13 11:48 PM
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cookcounty Offline
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@vinnietooth

what in the fuck does al Sharpton have to do with detroits problems?

Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728813
07/22/13 11:51 PM
07/22/13 11:51 PM
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LittleNicky Offline
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Because Al is apart of the racist politics that destroyed cities like Detriot.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/d...4871_story.html

Quote:

The white population’s abandonment of the city left Detroit with a shrinking tax base and deteriorating, segregated public schools — a system locked in place by a Supreme Court order that halted busing across school district lines. But blacks still in Detroit had one thing left — political power. And they would guard it jealously against any encroachment, real or imagined.

Thus, the city’s black political class sees conspiracy theories everywhere. The investigation of the last mayor by the Detroit Free Press, and his indictment by a prosecutor, are seen as a white conspiracy to undermine black “home rule” of Detroit. The governor’s appointment of an emergency financial manager, once it became clear that Detroit cannot manage its own fiscal affairs, is again seen as a hostile, racist takeover by the state over the city’s elected black leadership.

Racial politics, and that racial prism, long ago ruined Detroit, and now they hamper any chance the city has at a modest recovery. As a longtime friend, one who has stayed in Detroit and worked to help the city, once put it to me succinctly: “Some people would rather be the king of nothing than a part of something.”

So this bankruptcy is sad. But it was, in a sense, inevitable — the final chapter in Detroit’s long slide from glory. Maybe this will be the kind of shock therapy the city needs, the hammer blow that gets the remaining residents to stop living in the past, recognize that the old Detroit is never coming back, and start making the painful sacrifices necessary to build a new, smaller city with what’s left.

I hope so. But somehow I doubt it. If we Detroiters have one fault, it’s that we are addicted to nostalgia and living in our highly selective view of the past.



Last edited by LittleNicky; 07/22/13 11:54 PM.

Should probably ask Mr. Kierney. I guess if you're Italian, you should be in prison.
I've read the RICO Act, and I can tell you it's more appropriate...
for some of those guys over in Washington than it is for me or any of my fellas here
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728814
07/22/13 11:52 PM
07/22/13 11:52 PM
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And do those unfunded liabilty issues exist in states historically controlled by the republican party?

Which states have the strongest economies by in large? STates that are more business friendly.


Frank Costello: Fucking rats. It's wearing me thin. Mr. French: Francis, it's a nation of fucking rats.
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: vinnietoothpicks26] #728866
07/23/13 12:26 PM
07/23/13 12:26 PM
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With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
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Originally Posted By: vinnietoothpicks26
And do those unfunded liabilty issues exist in states historically controlled by the republican party?

Which states have the strongest economies by in large? STates that are more business friendly.



There are multiple reasons Detroit went under, and althought there are paople with various agendass who fit them to the situation there is no single cause. Paul Krugman has some good words on this.

As for the assertion that businesses like "business friendly" states, that is totally true, but then again what is "business freindly to one type of business is not so friendy to others. For example after all the textile industry moved from the South to Asia, there were a bunch of poor states with lots of low to mediaum skill labor who would jump at the chance to make cars, so you see an exodus from Michigan and you see all the foreign car companies moving in to South Carolina, Mississippi, etc, where there is no union protection, low wages, low taxes, etc. This is "business friendlt" for the auto manufacuring industry. Banking on the other hand, and all financial trading does better in New York, and the whole DC-Boston corridor. Why? Because the best schools and culture are there, and their employees demand that standard of living. It is more costly, but overall it is more "business friendly" to that kind of business. Ditto for the Northwest and Northern California where much of the hi tech stuff is. Again, a climate amenable to people in that industry, good schools, laid back lifestyle....business friendly for that kind of business. I could go on but the point is made. When words like "business friendly" start getting tossed around it leads some ignorant people to think it means low taxes and no regulation. This is not the case in all business, and so it should not become a clarion call for the "no gevernment" agenda favored by the tea baggers.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: pizzaboy] #728876
07/23/13 12:41 PM
07/23/13 12:41 PM
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123JoeSchmo Offline
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123JoeSchmo  Offline
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Dontomasso: while I agree with most of your statement I would like to point out that places like New York and Boston can afford that kind of living because they have a large tax base and different sources of income. Detroit has neither of those things which is why they cannot afford their bloated pension plans. In addition unions can cause serious problems for business, which is why so many people moved down south or west. Frankly, I'm more concerned with rust belt cities that are moving in the same direction as Detroit than cities and states with right to work laws and low unemployment


"Don't ever go against the family again. Ever"- Michael Corleone
Re: Detroit Bankrupt [Re: 123JoeSchmo] #728881
07/23/13 01:20 PM
07/23/13 01:20 PM
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dontomasso Offline
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dontomasso  Offline
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Joe ..Point taken. All you have to do is drive through Pennsylvania and see the devastation of the rust belt. Other than Philadelphia and Pittsburg the place is poverty stricken.

While I agree the unions share in the blame for the collapse of Detroit, I also do not understand how they did not diversify. You have the U of Michigan right there.. one of the greatest schools in the country, yet they under used it as a resource.

I also blame the car manufacturers. From 1960 forward they produced crappy products, and it opened the door for Euroopean and later Japanese cars to come in and take over the market.

IMHO it was a perfect storm of poor management and poor labor practices.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

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