Hey DBCH, you bring up some good points, I think can answer some of your questions though. Micheal only breifly touches on Roth's motive towards the end of GF II. He simply says "Roth thinks he's going to live forever", Michael implies here that Roth is simply power hungry and wants more power due to his arrogent sense of immortality.

Danny Aiello (Rosatto), saying "Michael Corleone says hello," to Frankie before he strangles him, was as another previous post indicates an improved line that FFC kept because it fit with the plot.

This opens up a whole new can of worms to whether it was a botched hit or made to look botched. If it was botch then Danny Aiello's line was delivered to mislead Pentangeli. If on the other hand it was botched, it can be argued that since Roth was the one that ordered the hit on Michael, he was just taking what Mike said at Roth's home in Miami (Mike's comments about how he knew Pentangeli order the hit) as permission to get rid of Pentangeli who was in the way of his desire for power; i.e. in the way of the Rosatto Brother's who were under Roth's rule.

Also in GF III, I have always just assumed it was Zasa that ordered the hit because he left just before the hit after being snubbed. Due to the holes in the plot, it's really impossible to know if Zasa was just an arrogent and ambitious person or was working for Lucchese.

It definatly IMO was Zasa because what FFC and MP do brilliantly in the GF trilogy is make us beleive person A did this and person B did that for these reasons, but it's really person C who's behind them. Person C is usually a manipulator who aligns the person's desires and goals with their's and manipulates the person in a convincing way to do their will.

I think Zaza was working for Altobello, because later when introducing Vincent to Luchesse, Altobello says something like "If we had known he was around, we never would have backed Joey".

This leads me to believe that Altobello is admitting he and Luchesse conned Zaza into the Atlantic City massacre because it would have (theoretically) eliminated Michael and ALL the other dons. Luchesse would then be rid of Michael, and I'm assuming Zaza was promised complete dominion over New York since there would be no other families to go against him (remember, the survivors made deals with Zaza after the hit) except possibly the remains of the Corleone's which wouldn't have nearly enough manpower to go through a real war.

Yeah that does all make sense.

So in Part II, Roth orders the hit because Michael is stalling and because of Moe Green, but that would be taking things personally.

I just never thought that there was any deal going on between Michael and Roth until they went to Cuba... FFC and Puzo should have made their dealings, which took place before the movie began, more known.

Keep in mind one over-arching fact: though Michael says to Fredo, "Roth wants me out," Michael is the one who wants Roth out. Roth and Vito Corleone had been partners, but only in the Prohibition-era booze business, as Roth pointedly reminds Michael several times. But Michael had been greedily horning in on Roth's Western gambling empire even before Vito died. The first business deal we see Michael involved in when he returned from Sicily was to push Moe Green, Roth's best friend, out of his Las Vegas hotel; later he had Moe killed because he resisted. By late 1958, when we first meet Hyman Roth, Michael has moved his entire operation to Lake Tahoe, owns three hotels in Nevada, and is about to force Meyer Klingman out of a fourth hotel, owned by Roth and the Lakeville Road Boys. And it's obvious that Michael has designs on Roth's Havana gaming empire. Small wonder Roth feels threatened!

Roth has been buying time by pretending he's a kindly elder statesman, in the twilight of his years, who regards Michael as his surrogate son and heir. But he's plotting all along to kill Michael—there isn’t room for both of them. He decides to kill Michael at Anthony's First Communion party because he knows Frank Pentangeli will be there, contentious over the Rosato Brothers, whom Michael and Roth favor over Frankie. Thus Frankie has the perfect motivation to kill Michael--and will make the perfect fall-guy for the crime. Even though the attempt failed, Roth is heartened that Michael, as he expected, blames Frankie for the attempt. But, instead of killing Frankie, Michael dispatches him to settle his problems with the Rosatos. Oh-oh! Roth knows Michael would never give an enemy a break, so now he knows that Michael really doesn't suspect Frankie in the Tahoe attack--meaning he could suspect Roth. So Roth orders the Rosatos to kill Frankie, the better to remove one of Michael's allies. The Cuba ploy was another clever plot of Roth's: lure Michael there with the promise of taking over Roth's lucrative gaming empire, meanwhile have his pal Batista assassinate Michael.

Very astute summary Turnbull, it puts the motives in a more complicated and realistic setting.

When does Mike know for sure it is Roth? He goes to Roth and says it's Frankie. Then he goes to Frankie and says it's Roth.

I always thought he was playing both sides against each other, but never knew when he really knew who was behind it all. Was it when Roth went into the whole Moe Green tale?

Your right he plays all sides against one another. He was sure it was Roth when he asked him about the Pentangeli hit and Roth went off on a rant about Moe Green. Although he fully suspected him the whole time, but were never fully sure who was against him.

problems with gf3
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then main problem is that you don't get a sense of who the real enemy is. don luchese and kleinzig appear sporadically, and you kind of forget about them when they are not on screen. altobello was no roth (then again must have been impossible to get someone of the likes of lee strassberg on short notice!). zasa was nearest thing to a decent villain (kind of reminicent of sollozzo).
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the last third of the film seems to concentrate on michaels inner turmoil and the family relationships, especially between kay and michael (and for the most part handles it v well). the immobiliare plot sems to disappear, and when it resurfaces it seems like an unwanted distraction

gf1 and 2 seem to blend these aspects together seamlessly.
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i saw gf3 again recently, and i must admit that it wasn't nearly as bad as i remember it. however, i feel that goodfellas is the real gf3.....the story of what happens to the old values of the mob when the old boys move on!

IMHO Mike knew the Vatican Bank was in deep trouble. He first sets up the Vito Andolini Corleone Foundation and puts 100 million into the Vatican Bank's hands. This gets his foot in the door. With the first 100 million, there was already a tacit understanding between Gilday and Harrison that the Corleones were going to make a move to take over Immobiliare. At the party in Mike's apt. Harrison makes some kind of comment to Gilday about the family having increased its position and that he was worried. Gilday reassures him by saying they already have "an arrangement." Then Michael goes to Gilday and they negotiate how much it will take to get the Vatican Bank to cast its vote to give Corleone control over Immobiliare. He ends up depositing 600 million in the Vatican bank, and thus keeps it from going under. This is nothing more than a bribe to get the vote he needs. The swindle happens in Rome. The deal was always subject to ratification by the Pope, but the Pope died, and therefore Michael was left with a minority share in Immobiliare and 700 million sitting in a bankrupt bank. On the advice of Don Tomassino he then goes to Cardinal Lamberto to tell him the whole sordid story, and of course Lamberto becomes Pope and he does ratify the deal (we learn this during the opera).

One question that has always been troublesome, however is whether or not Immobiliare was really "legitimate." At the meeting in Atlantic City all the Dons are grumbling about how they want to wet their beaks in Immobiliare as well, something Michael refuses to do. During that scene one of the Dons makes a comment about how Immobiliare is laundering money in various countries. If that was common knowledge, then it is dubious that Michael really thought Immobiliare was entirely on the up and up.

Someone should watch the movie again and keep notes regarding the plot to see if we can definitely hammer something out for sure.

It's either that or call FFC at home.

Better start dialing--we'll never know more otherwise.

ME: Hello, Francis? Hi, big fan here. Listen, would you mind taking a long weekend to explain the plot of Godfather III? Some people over at the Gangster BB still aren't sure what to make of it. What were you and Mario thinking? Care to explain?

FFC: Don't call here again. (long pause) Ever.

ME: Captain Eo rocked, by the-

*CLICK*

I watched it again. I will confirm that Anthony DOES say "maybe she's not dead" at the end of the picture, even though it is not in the transcript on this site. Mary does die, and presumably so does Michael, unless that is some kind of dream sequence.