Ivy let it go your opinions won't change
Did you happen to notice that elmwoodparker was the one who brought this all up again?
terminology aka slang ain't the same in Chicago as it is in NY
Only with a handful of minor things, like a captain in Chicago often being referred to as a "crew boss."
two different cities.....NY has 5 families and Chicago has 1
Thanks for clarifying that.
made guys in Chicago don't have the same function as NY madeguys. 100 madeguys in NY all try to eat off the same plate, where in Chicago most madeguys have their own crew of guys that operate in their designated section (north,south,west)
for example; nick calabrese had a crew and he wasn't made
Nonsense. You don't think there are plenty of NY soldiers who have their own crew of associates? Made guys in Chicago have the same function as those in New York. It's no different.
Ivy, I agree that there are 30 active made guys.
Maybe we're making some headway now. But, for the record, the FBI didn't say "active." Of the two quotes by different FBI officials, one said there were "28 members roaming the Chicagoland area." The other simply said there were "30 members," which seems to suggest a total figure.
Where I disagree is in the number and definition of an associate. If you were to count all the guys who work full time directly for the made guys, plus you added in all the people WHO DO BUSINESS WITH THE OUTFIT ( which would be all the Bar Owners, street bookies, union guys etc.) the number OF ASSOCIATES would be way more than 120. There are at least 100 bar owners who have poker machines alone! That's why the 1997 Crime Commission Report stated 700 to 1,200 Associates. They were counting EVERBODY. The 2007 Report of more than 100 Associates was only counting the full time guys who work directly for the made guys because the made guys run their own crews. Do you see what I'm saying? I KNOW YOU ARE SMART ENOUGH TO SEE THE DIFFERENCE.
In addition, as a side note, The Feds questioned my Uncle as far back as 1997 about the Outfit structure and other things that we talk about here on these blogs. If they know everything, why would they want to question him and when he refused to talk, send him to Jail for two years?? No Offense, but all I'm saying is that my Uncle knows more than the Feds.
I've said many times before that I don't take associate estimates that seriously because, depending on how one defines it, the number can expand or retract. A looser definition is obviously going to result in a bigger number. A more strict definition is obviously going to result in a smaller number.
That said, for comparison purposes, i.e. apples to apples or Chicago and New York, we have to go with the same criteria - the latest official estimates. If one wants to use the more expansive number of associates for Chicago, fine, but then they also have to do the same for New York.
Finally, one can get a better impression of the the likely Outfit associate number when they look at the number of made members, the activity in recent years, and compare it to other families. When one takes these things into account for Chicago, a little over 100 associates seems more likely than 700-1,200.
I will speak for Ny (even tho my location says nj, 90% of nj guys belong to a ny family). In regards to the argument over the term "crew"... I have heard two different usages for the term crew involving NY guys... One is a captain's "crew". This includes Soldiers (Madeguys) and Associates. Another is what is referred to as the group of guys who are under the Soldier/Made Guy. This also gets into the debate over associates. The FBI will call someone an associate if they eat dinner with a made guy... If they sell the made guy coke... If they arre a relative to a made guy... If they are one of two hundred agents that operate under a connected sportsbook. The feds are lying hypocrits who do this to inflate their numbers and justify their paychecks. If they catch one connected guy who sells weed and ten of his customers, they say "11 Gambino Associates arrested for running million dollar drug trafficking ring"... On the street, in NY, a REAL associate is considered someone who is "on the record" or "under" a made guy. A soldier has no limit on the number of guys he can claim. He can claim his father, his brother, his cousins, his in laws, his best friends, his neighbor, his business partner, his bartender, his drug dealer, someone who owes him money, whatever.. It can be 2 guys or 20 under a made guys flag. I dont know how they are counted in chicago. The soldier tells the captain so and sos with me, and hes officially an associate. The feds multiply the number of soldiers they have by 10 and say whatever like 1000 or something.... Basically captains have crews of soldiers, soldiers have crews of associates, and associates can have crews of there own guys if they have enough leadership. I consider someone to be connected when theyre actually with a crew. But some people will call a guy connected if he buys coke from a connected guy so it varies.
For what it's worth, a poster over on the RD (who was retired law enforcement) said the associate estimate for a family is typically left up to the local FBI SAC. And, from what I've read, the FBI has a stricter criteria on who they consider an associate than, say, the NYPD.
When it comes to gambling, some books have THOUSANDS of agents. A famous example, Pennacle.Connected as fuck. Bonannos and Westside both have hooks into that group. Penny (and affiliated groups) have thousands of agents up and down the east coast... Some packages are completely run by connected guys. Big package holder in the bronx...Made guy, under him connected guys/associates. But does that make EVERY AGENT an associate of organized crime? I can say this about 3 other books not quite the size of Penny but still up there. Big ass books-run 100% by a NY crime family... But would that make like 10,000 associates? Theres a double standard to this shit and the government never plays fair. And another thing i must say is, Ivy doesnt have opinions. He has his mind set. 100% that whatever he reads online is right and there is no evidence that will change his opinion. Ive talked with him for months. He cant help it. He asks me for what i say on a few things and if i reply with something that doesnt match the majority evidence he presents whatever documents he has and says "this says so and so as official captain, there fore based on... " you know how he is.. Hes not really saying im a liar or anything, and its a little off putting at first but its just how he is. I dont hold it against him, but he sticks to his guns and wont stray from the facts that are presented before him. Im not here for a popularity contest, if you dont believe what i have to say you can fuck yourself with bowie knife, i dont care, i know what i know. Life is too short to argue about the size of the mafia. Take care my friends.
Though I think the relative size of LCN families is a crucial factor, I actually agree with much of what you said above. We need to take care not to throw out the label "associate" too freely. Because many, if not most, if those agents probably wouldn't fit the criteria.
Incidentally, in addition to Pinnacle, do you know of any others that are mob-connected, Skinny? Below are some of the ones I've seen involved in mob gambling busts over the past decade.
http://www.betonsports.comhttp://www.playwithal.comhttp://www.betonline.comhttp://ww1.bigactionsports.comhttp://www.beteagle.comhttp://www.perfectwager.comhttp://www.betmsg.comhttp://www.betallsports.comhttp://www.betwsi.comhttp://www.betoffshore.nethttp://www.betonsports.comhttp://www.44wager.com
