Santino, if one hand claps in the forest, does a tree fall?

If two forests fall in a clap, do five trees sleep under snow?

As.
Much.
Sense.
Making.

I didn't read all the stuff, just the last page. I see some interesting things going on. The posts of Capo and Santino are opposed to each other, but both make very clear how they 'see things' without flaming (or too much flaming).

Personally I don't believe in a God. The only person I believe in is myself. I'm the one who's responsible for my actions and for the things that happen/occur to me. For me there is always a logical reason for things that happen.

I agree Floors. However, I have an abiding respect for people who do believe in God and who are religious as long as that belief and that religiousness doesn't result in physical or mental harm to others (as those terms are usually understood). Some of the content of a couple of Board members posts on this subject have been replete with vitriole that betrays a deep wound somewhere along their life's line.

Would the endorsement of irrational superstition come under "mental harm", or would "mental deficiency" be a better term?

'Vant, whose posts on this subject have been replete with vitriol that betrays a deep wound somewhere along their life's line?

No i don't believe in god.

Bump..

I absolutely believe in God and His Son, my Lord & Saviour, Jesus Christ. Through Him all things are possible. I am a very blessed man with a beautiful wife, two great kids, a job that I love and a terrific home. Of course I wish he would have blessed me with a better metabolism - I could lose some weight!

Oli, I wouldn't have said it any better myself! Especially the "replete with vitriole" kicker! Just trying to help so you don't waste time with bashing the believer about how harmful religion is with vitriole!

I don't believe in a God or an afterlife, though I am open to being wrong on the subject. I used to be a believer, but like most (if not all) believers, I believed simply because I had never considered that there might be an altenative. There is an alternative, and it makes a hell of a lot more sense.

I could never put it as eloquently as Capo (whom I miss and wish would visit these boards more often), but there are just too many contradictions, too many inconsistencies, and too much hate and intolerance for me to ever consider religion again. Plus, it is far more likely that there is no God, and if there is a God, He isn't the omnibenevolent, omnicompetent, omniscient God that Christians believe He is.

As they say "you got to believe" and just curious on why you think there's more probability there not being a God?

There are countless reasons, but I'll name a few.

The problem of evil. There are a few examples, but I will focus on Draper's evidential problem of gratuitous evil.

1. Gratuitous evils exist.
2. The hypothesis of indifference, i.e., that if there are supernatural beings they are indifferent to gratuitous evils, is a better explanation for (1) than theism.
3. Therefore, evidence prefers that no god, as commonly understood by theists, exists.

Now, free will dictates we can do what we want, and some people do some pretty horrific things. I understand that. But the problem is with gratuitous evil. Take the Holocaust, for example. I understand that some bad things must happen in order for us to truly understand and appreciate what is good. But when is enough enough? What can we possibly learn from the extermination of 6 million Jews that couldn't have been learned by the extermination of a small percent of that? You don't think an omnibenevolent God could have intervened at some point and stopped it? What it tells me is that if there is a God, He either has the power to stop these things and chooses not to, or he is an omnibenevolent God, but doesn't have the power to stop it. The more likely scenario, however, is God doesn't exist.

Some may argue that God is a "hidden God" and therefore can't make any sort of overt contact with his followers, because faith is believing without knowing. You have the choice to believe, and God showing Himself to His followers takes that option away. But a hidden God isn't possible either. There are countless examples in the Bible itself that prove that God isn't averse to showing Himself. Exodus, Chapter 14, the parting of the Red Sea, for example.

Want an example from the New Testament? Matthew, Chapter 17:

After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

Clearly, God doesn't want to hide. So why is God hiding today? Simple, the Bible is a collection of stories created by MAN, and God probably doesn't exist.

If God doesn't exist like you state here as fact that's fine if that is your stance. However don't take the tone nor stance that I have to abide by your word or single example. If that's your belief than I commend you for it, however your conviction and the way you express yourself tells me your need to spread this belief. However, me personally I have other beliefs which obviously don't align with yours. I understand this is an open forum, however you were responding to my post. So in other words I appreciate your stance but I'm not budging.

Thank you EHI. This is the best argument for not participating in these debates. You are saying exactly what most think .... "I have my own beliefs and whatever you say or do won't change them".

What tone? I never said (or implied) that you have to abide by my word. You asked why I think it is more likely that God doesn't exist than He does. I told you why, and gave you examples. Nothing more, nothing less. I don't force what I believe on others, but will answer when asked, so pipe down with the attitude.

maybe that one!

Yes, that would be the attitude. And also the line "their is no God" which is purely your opinion and you stated as fact.

It is CLEARLY my opinion. I was unaware that I had to put "in my opinion" after everything I said. I would have assumed that would be clear. Clearly, I was mistaken.

SO, to clarify, in my most humble of opinions, God does not exist, for the reasons stated above (which are not facts).

Drama? Really?

I though it needed a flair.

To be honest, that tone came later. And it´s understandable, in my opinion. East, it seems as if you know exactly what buttons to push. Is it pure coincidence that you seem to be right in the middle of most of the fracas around here? Or are you just an agitator, provoking people for your own satisfaction? What will you do when people stop responding to your posts? No offense but If ever visiting London, make sure to give Speaker´s corner in Hyde Park a shot.

If the mods find this post offensive, they may give me a vaccation. It´s worth it.

Participating in topic generally puts one in the middle of the "fracas". And since I'm here to often I guess that puts me in more than your comfortable with. When people stop responding to me I will talk to myself I guess! And no offense taken! Don't take offense to this, I would like to see London for many reason. However I'm more into tropical weather and beaches!

You certainly have a knack of rubbing people the wrong way. It does not suit you and your definition of God's righteousness that you so passionately seem to defend.

I'm simply participating in a discussion. Things get passionate when sides disagree. And your a hypocrite plain and simple

What is plain and simple is the boot on your ass out of here. It's long overdue despite many warnings.

I knew it was only a matter of time.

Seriously, all I did was answer the question that he asked me, an all of a sudden, I have a "tone", and I'm trying to force my ideas on him. Don't ask the questions if you can't handle the answers.

Good riddance!

Why EastHarlemItal Why..

Seems like it took two to tangle and maybe you weren't so innocent!

and the addition of: Good riddance! shows it. You both are to blame as I see it.

This from the shit-stirrer of all shit-stirrers.