But when you write that they are pretending to believe in God, that's a statement of fact. You ought to be able to provide some evidence besides the fact that you disagree with them. As far as I know you're not Mrs. Obama or Mrs. Biden or anyone else privy to Pres/VP's innermost thoughts. So you're making an assertion, a somewhat offensive one, with absolutely nothing to back it up. This is one step above people saying Obama is the Antichrist. It's also in opposition to virtually everything in the New Testament where man is repeatedly told that it's God's role to judge, not his.
You need to improve your reading comprehension. I said nothing about whether either of them believe in God or that Obama is the Anti-Christ. I said their actions regarding certain issues, namely abortion and gay marriage, are not in keeping with Christianity. If you want to give them a pass because they have a (D) after their name, go ahead. But don't pretend that they're not in conflict here.
You know full well that Obama's current official position on gay marriage was timed just so. He, of course, had no problem with gay marriage all along. But he didn't feel comfortable coming out with it until after a certain point. It wasn't politically advantageous. So he bought time and claimed he was "evolving." Clinton played the same game beforehand. I know you see this. But, being the liberal partisan you've always been, you turn a blind eye to it. At least JoeSchmo acknowledges the obvious here.
Ivy, to which basic tenets of Christianity do you refer? Because after all there are dozens of different kinds of Christians, who fiercely disagree on matters large and small. As you know some Christians feel that Mormons aren't Christians. If someone made that as a statement of fact, would you accept it. No.
You know exactly which ones I'm referring to - abortion and gay marriage. No honest person, who understands Christianity and the Bible, can argue either is acceptable in Christianity. Since you feel Paul was only "dismissive" of homosexuality, you've shown your understanding to be lacking, to say the least.
And I'm very aware of those who don't consider Mormons to be Christians. And if we're going by
their limited understanding and definition of Christianity, I would completely agree.
Ted Olson is for gay marriage. Is he pretending to be Christian?
He apparently believes gays have a legal right to marry so he is certainly putting his politics ahead of his supposed religious beliefs. Hence, he's doing the exact same thing Obama and Biden are.
There are Christians who are feminist and Christians who are traditionalist. There are Christians who fight to save the environment and Christians who joyfully slaughter elephants and strip-mine mountains. There are Christians who are pacifist and Christians who enjoy starting wars. There are pro-life Christians and pro-choice Christians. There are Christians who believe the Pope is the highest human authority on Earth and Christians who think he's just a man like anyone else. There are Christians who believe salvation is by grace alone and Christians who believe deeds and faith play a part. There are Christians who believe that imperialism and colonialism were good things and Christians who do not. There are Christians who focus on helping the poor and feeding the hungry and Christians who think Jesus was an Randian free market devotee. All of these groups overlap of course. Which of those groups are the "true" Christians?
In short once you get past a few basic creeds, there are a million and one ways to be a Christian. What you believe doesn't necessarily predict your politics. This is why it's important to have separation of religion and politics. Religion, or at least some religions, claim to have the inerrant Truth. Politics doesn't.
Another way to put it is, there are varying levels of understanding and adherence to Christianity. Christ isn't divided. The only reason we see so many denominations within Christianity (so called) is because of apostasy of His followers. All of them
claim to be Christian, and many do have a basic belief in Christ, but they interject their own opinions, political beliefs, etc. As the risen Christ said, "They draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof."
And I've already explained many times why a complete separation of politics and religion just isn't practical. Not to mention completely without basis when it comes to the Constitution, as much as secularists want to pretend otherwise.
Therefore what you say that government has no business trying to marginalize religion in government is simply and clearly wrong. When such laws go contrary to the rights of people who do not believe in that specific religion, I believe according to the 1st amendment government should and must part with laws that marginalize people's rights.
As for what those in government have to do when things go against their beliefs, this is the most tricky part of the religion. You can't have two masters and serve them both faithfully. If someone is elected to the office in the US, I think they should put the constitution first, as they are not elected by just a certain religious members of the country. They have to represent all people, be they believers or nonbelievers. They can keep their beliefs to matters only concerning themselves.
The only "right" you have, when it comes to the establishment clause in the first amendment is for the U.S. to not establish an official state religion, i.e. like the Church of England which the founding fathers had to deal with. It has nothing to do with law makers not using their religious influences in how they make laws. The latter is simply a perversion people, such as yourself, have made to thwart the original meaning to your whim.
IvyLeague, do you confuse secularism and atheism?
A Christian can be a perfect secularist.
No, I'm not confusing the two. And I would disagree that a Christian can be a secularist on certain issues. For instance, Obama can't claim to be a believing Christian and then have the stance on abortion or gay marriage that he does. What's next? People claiming to be Christians but saying they don't believe Jesus ever existed?
