I recently saw a Michael Moore documentary, \'Bowling for Columbine,\' and it was very good. It's a powerful documentary that questions why America has so many murders with guns than any countries and also has several other points. There are just over 60 murders a year by a gun in the UK. Does anyone know how many there are in the US? Over 11,000. 11,000 people die at the power of a gun each year, but the question is: who to blame?

Is is MTV? Is it the music star you fear your teenage son or daughter will look up to? Is it video games?...The answer is simple: No. Did anyone ever think that the answer to gun violence might actually not be something kids enjoy? Any person that is sane can watch 'Scarface' and not say, "Yo man. I'ma be like Scarface. That crazy nigga was the shit. Let's get some money and pop some bitch ass motherfuckers." Sure, some people take it to the head. Some.

Whenever a shooting takes place that involves a juvenile, the question is, "What led them to do this?" Adults immediately blame the things kids love: "It was the movie. It was that new rap song. It's that God damn video game that just came out. (Let's not mention I was there when they bought it because an adult must be there to purchase a mature rated game with someone under 17). :rolleyes: " It's funny, because some of these things cause violence, but what is it that we call the war in Iraq? How come people never speak of that?

On the morning of the Columbine shooting, the 2 shooters went bowling at a 6 AM. Less than 6 hours later, they went into their school and wounded dozens and killed 12 people, including themselves. How do we know that the bowling they did that morning didn't result in the shooting? The person who was immediately blamed for the Columbine shooting wasn't a respected business man. It wasn't something parents enjoy. He was a rocker named Marilyn Manson. "His lyrics led these 2 teenagers to shoot up their school." Are you shitting me?

Ok, now don't get me wrong here, Marilyn Manson is obviously a weird character and I DON'T listen to any of his music; however, to blame him is absolutely stupid. I have read some of his lyrics, and they're like other rock stars' lyrics today. Did we ever think that this shooting might've been the fault of the parents? Where were the parents at? The kids had 3 or 4 guns, and the father said, "I didn't see him leave with anything that morning." People can look at someone's pants and see if a cell phone or a pack of cigarettes are in their pocket, you couldn't see a fucking TEC 9?

Let me touch on another subject I mentioned earlier. Video games. I think it's absolutely amazing when I hear that video games cause kids and people to be violent. The Grand Theft Auto series, which I assume most of you heard of, is one of the most violent games ever made; however, just like movies, video games have ratings. This game is rated 'Mature,' meaning the person buying this must be ATLEAST 17 years old and have an ID or be accompanied by a parent/guardian.

Concluding, the question still remains: who is to blame? It can be a totally different situation for a juvenile and 50 year old person, but to blame entertainment is insane. People who take it to the head should be easily recognized, better sooner than later. -Pat

Charlton Heston

No, actually I dont think any one person is at fault. You could blame society for creating the criminals who commit gun crimes. You could blame the criminals themselves. You could blame the laws that protect the American's right to bear arms. Personally, I dont blame anybody but I do agree that it is a poison in our country.

There is no easy answer, and I agree with everything you've said here, Pat. I think that people deserve the right to bear arms, if they wish to (for whatever reason that is). Besides "self-defense" shootings, I'd say the main cause of nearly any shooting (whether the killer is a teenager or a 50-year old man) is the parental influence. From an early age, when we begin to develop our personalities, we begin to emulate our parents. If they are violent, we too will most likely be violent people. In other cases, it could just be the environment the people live in. It is a very complicated issue, and the closest thing that I've heard to a solution was said by Chris Rock: "If a bullet cost $5000 there wouldn't be any innocent bystanders."

Thug

Patrick - It's a known fact that Michael Moore is a spin doctor of the highest degree. Let us go over some of his oversights (read "lies") in "Bowling For Columbine", shall we?

• What kind of bank would actually let you walk out holding a fucking rifle, no less twirling it like John Wayne? That particular bank does give you a gun, yes, but that whole "transaction" was staged. You have to sign up for a long-term CD, then they do a background check on you. If that background check passes, they give you a coupon for the free firearm, which you can then go pick up at a gun shop.
• The so-called missles he showed you at that plant right by Columbine High School were also faux. That plant does make rockets, but they are not ballistic ones, they are made for launching satellites into outer space.
• In Canada nobody locks their doors, right? Puh-leeze. A group of Canadian broadcasters went on "The Howard Stern Show" shortly after that movie came out and said that that is a total exaggeration. Canadians still lock their doors, just as Americans do, just as anybody else in the fucking world.
• The advertisement he showed that lambasted Bush was tampered with heavily. Bush's face was never in the actual commercial, in fact, it was superimposed onto it later by a group that opposed him.
• As far as Marilyn Manson's and violent video games' involvement in violence in the real world, that is simply a cop-out. If you want to read something hilarious, go to Congressman Joe Baca's supposed " fact sheet " on a bill he tried to pass aimed at protecting children from violent video games. Some of those "facts" are so obviously hare-brained and false, you cannot help but wonder what this guy is thinking. He is surely out-of-touch with young people, that much is for sure. He makes some totally ridiculous claims as well: one of my favorites says that certain video games allow you to rape women...what the fuck game is he talking about? I am a huge fan of video games and have been for my whole life and I have never seen a game like that. If he is talking about some Hentai shit, then maybe, but who the fuck even plays those games? They are surely not available at any mainstream store! The same goes with music - it does not cause violence among young people. I recommend checking out this document , which proves that there is relatively no connection between violence in the media and violence committed by young people.
• There is a part where he quotes a dollar figure of spending on a certain type of airplane by the government...I don't recall the exact details about this but I remember that this number was grossly inflated and certain points were left out. I think he tried to say that that amount was the total being spent on that plane when in actuality it was the total amount of money in the budget for that branch of government.

The Columbine massacre was clearly caused by two disturbed little shits who should have been dealt with earlier, had their parents not had their heads up their own asses. Also, how many people have been saved by guns? It's a shame he didn't include that statistic in the movie...on second thought, he probably would have butchered that one too, so maybe it's better he left it out.
Here is a word of advice to everyone here: please take what comes from Michael Moore's fat-ass mouth with a grain of salt. We will all be better for it in the end.

And I never even said anything about anything you posted. I just mentioned the difference in murders by guns between America and the UK which is proven. -Pat

Chris Rocks whacky idea probably came from the late New York Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who proposed taxing bullets some huge 10,000 percent.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything HSIG said, Michael Moore is perhaps the most impressive spin doctor to date, rivaling that of Joe McCarthy in the 50's perhaps with his convoluted message and crusade against the Bush administration and in general, his bashing of American principals.

Well said, HSIG.

I am not a Michael Moore fan, he is known to misrepresents peoples positions cutting portions of their interview to what he wants them to be. The UK is perhaps 10 times smaller than the US so is that a fair comparison? I believe in gun control but lets be honest here

I agree with HSIG and JJ

Patrick, what I said simply shows you how you can't take anything Moore says as being the hardcore truth. People like him, to an extent, cause problems that don't necessarily exist in the first place, and I'm not saying there is not a gun problem. There is a gun problem but it is nowhere near to the extent that Moore makes it out to be. That is all I was saying.

Double-J and deathkiss - Thanks guys, I appreciate the comments!

I think we're much smaller than that. But even if we were to talk in proportionate levels, the UK would still be much much lower in gun crime.

Patrick I agree with you that parents should be held responsible, but I have to disagree with you in that entertainment (such as movies/music) has no influence on us. How many times do you hear a song & get pumped up for a game? How many times do you watch a movie & try to be that character? Some kids do these things & either don't distinguish or don't care about life & art. I do feel that entertainment does sometimes influence our behavior. But I also feel that parents should be held more to what their children do and not try to put the blame on artists trying to make a living, or video game makers, or movies. I believe a person is responsible for their own actions!

Well put.

The Iceman - Thanks, man!

Did anyone see that Michael Moore and Ray Bradbury might be meeting in the courtroom because Moore never asked for permission to rip off the "Fahrenheit 451" name for his new film "Fahrenheit 9/11"? :rolleyes:

Go Ray, give that jackhole what he deserves...

That's fucking great, hopefully Bradbury will teach him a thing or two about intellectual property...

Let alone also ripping the books tagline "The temperature at which books burn" for "The temperature at which freedom burns"

I guess he though it was a marketing decision. :rolleyes:

Michael Moore is great. I love the guy. I don't think Fahrenheit 9/11 is coming out here though. -Pat

Isn't that illegal in most states? :p

It's coming out nationwide on Friday, so you can splooge all over him then!

It's coming out nationwide on Friday, so you can splooge all over him then! [/b][/quote]No, it's definetly not.

Isn't that illegal in most states? :p [/b][/quote]From Pennsyvannia its not TOO far to Massachusetts

Loving Michael Moore is like jumping into the sac with Joe McCarthy. :p

Loving Michael Moore is like jumping into the sac with Joe McCarthy. :p

I saw a funny bumper-sticker a couple weeks ago...

"Guns don't don't kill people, I kill people"

The only person to blame for gun violence is the one pulling the trigger. Firearms are not bad. They can be a good hobby. One of my favorite things to do is going hunting with my dad and brothers.