Ivy, do you have mangano and his family #2 from 31-51. In rabb's history of the 5 families he mentions Bonanno being #2 only to the Genovese family at that time in terms of money making. Don't have it right in front of me but do remember reading that. I'm not disagreeing with you just stating his point of view because I know that book is well respected. I have always found mangano to be one of the men I am most interested in. An extremely powerful boss but when you look at other bosses from that time (Luciano, Costello, Bonanno, Profaci) he seems to get lost in the shuffle. Him and Gagliano.
I don't recall that part in the book. And I'm not sure what Raab would be basing that on. The Genovese and Gambinos were always much bigger than the Bonannos. The Gambinos rivaled the Bonannos in the drug trade and also had far more extensive labor rackets. As well as operated more widely in general.
To go back to your first question, I believe the Gambinos have always been a strong #2 since the beginning. Even rivaling the Genovese in many ways for a time. But I don't believe they ever supplanted the Genovese as the most powerful family in both New York and the country. It was the Genovese family who represented many east coast families on the Commission. The Genovese family always had more union clout. And even when the Gambinos were slightly bigger in size, the Genovese were still considered both richer and more sophisticated.
How does anyone rate and rank power? How is that done? There is no way we would know all the connections all the bosses and members had. And how would we know exactly how much money all the members made? It´s impossible to know that. But if we are talking pure size, and going back to 1920s/1930s, the Gambinos are no 1, the Genoveses are no 2 (but they are bigger in size than the Gambinos today and have been for the last 20 years or so), Bonannos are no 3, Luccheses no 4 and Colombos no 5.
Some law enforcement agencies actually do have ways to figure stuff like this. For instance, Canadian law enforcement uses something called the "Sleipnir Version 2.0" which measures an organized crime group's "capability measurement matrix." Possible criteria that is considered includes the following...
1. Corruption
2. Violence
3. Infiltration
4. Expertise
5. Sophistication
6. Subversion
7. Strategy
8. Discipline
9. Insulation
10. Intelligence Use
11. Multiple Enterprises
12. Mobility
13. Stability
14. Scope
15. Monopoly
16. Group Cohesiveness
17. Continuity
18. Links to Other OC groups
19. Links to extremists groups
Of course, one doesn't necessarily need to get this in depth to see one LCN family is more powerful than another. Size is obviously a factor. Big difference between a 200 member family and a 20 member a family. Diversification is another. Sophistication in terms of labor unions and legitimate businesses is another. How widely they operate is another. And so on.
In the late 90s, when the Bonannos reached their traditional strenght of 150 made members, they weren't much smaller than the Gambinos at about 200 made members.
First, while being aware of the 150 members being cited in certain articles and books, I'm still a little dubious about it. A little over 100 members were cited by the government in the 2002 indictment against TG Graziano. And 115 members were cited by the government in the 2003 indictment against Frank Coppa.
But even if we assume they did reach 150 members at one point, they still lacked the involvement the Gambino's had in things like construction, trucking, the Brooklyn waterfront, some garbage, etc. And even in terms of the more traditional street rackets, the Bonannos didn't operate as widely as the Gambinos, either in New York or elsewhere. They certainly seemed to be operating much smoother at the time. But the house of cards eventually crumbled once the feds got on the ball again and the indictments started coming down.
Rank the families throughout the U.S. please.
In my opinion...
#1 Genovese
#2 Gambino
...big drop off...#3-5 The Luccheses would probably be #3 right now but there really isn't a wide gap between any of the three smaller NY families. Toss up between the Colombos and Bonannos regarding who #4 and #5.
...big drop off...#6-8 I would still put Chicago ahead of New England and Philadelphia but not by much. The modern day Outfit is much closer in size and scope to these families than it is to any of the NY families. Toss up between New England and Philadelphia regarding who is #7 and #8.
#9 New Jersey. The DeCavalcantes would have been among the families above at one time but they are slightly smaller in size, according to the most recent official estimates, and have had nowhere near as much activity in recent years.
...big drop off...#10 Detroit. Almost not even on the radar.
No other family is considered viable by the FBI. Anywhere else you just have remnants of a family that once was.
And how do you know how much money these families bring in to make determinations about "wealth?" Does Google have more powers when its accessed from Utah?
In 2013, size should not equal strength. Chicago and Detroit are two strong borgatas where familial relationships run rampant throughout the organizations via marriage of their children...like Sarno's daughter marrying Jimmy Inendino's son or Albie Vena marrying a Spina. This is why rats are so rare in those cities. Creating a smaller power base and making a very select few (mostly those you are related to through marriage) is way more effective than having "150 made guys on the street" in 2013.
Who are you talking to? None of the guys you responded to live in Utah.
Anyway, to argue that the size of a family doesn't matter is absurd. It's basically saying there's no inherent difference in a 200 member family or a 20 member family.
And it's a stretch to call Detroit a "strong borgata." They're easily the next family to cross the line into history. Familial ties may help maintain more loyalty but it doesn't help to stave off general attrition.
Finally, you need to quit bringing up Google like you never use it. We all use it. I don't care who you are, where you live, what you may hear on "the street" from time to time, or whatever. All of us get most of our information from the same public sources. Anyone who pretends otherwise is full of it.
